News and theories about the missing Malaysian plane

[Mr Efficiency]

Interesting Alan, thanks.

 

[Petros]

Aliki,

Thank you for the elaboration, I have not heard nor read that from any other sourses. that first link indicates that Royal Dutch shell was contracting with Ukraine to drill for gas supplies in Eastern Ukraine (to presumably make Ukraine less dependent on Russian gas supplies). Many of the passengers on board this flight were Dutch, including I understand some employees of Royal Dutch shell. Could be coincidence, or idle speculation, but it does not seem in Ukraine's best interest to create Dutch victims (unless it is some convoluted plot to get the Dutch to assist Ukraine in getting control of Eastern Ukraine from Russia).

That second link is rather disturbing too, though it could be just business as usual.

But all of this sure adds up to something that just does not smell right. IOW, this whole thing really stinks.

 

[Alik]

1. There is information about serial numbers of 'lost' Malaysian plane and the one been shot in Ukraine:

- MH370 - 9M-MRO
- MH17 - 9M-MRD

Interesting, yes?

2. Then, info from the rebels side - the bodies found in plane do not seem to be 'fresh'. Not sure to believe or not.

3. Russian sources say the plane was hijacked to Diego Garcia base in Indian Ocean and later used for provocation against Russia.

4. It was surprising that Ukrainian media and officials started screaming about Malaysian plane shot just few minutes after it happened. They have no access to the site of crash (occupied by rebels), and also as they control the air traffic in that area they would be likely to to hide/investigate the story first. At least they would not claim it was shot from beginning.

 

[ImaginaryNumber]

No way that plane was targeted by the rebels knowing it was a civilian airliner, there was nothing in it for them to do that.

On the TV news last night they were reporting the overheard radio conversation between a Separatist and a Russian adviser just after the airplane was shot down. It went something like this--

We got the plane <happy>
(moments later)
I think it was a civilian plane.
Are you sure?
We can see bodies falling.
We f--ked up!!

This suggests to me that the Separatists and the Russian advisers thought they were shooting down a Ukrainian military plane (they had shot down two or three in the past few days), instead shot down a civilian plane, and immediately realized they had made a huge mistake.

 

[Alik]

On the TV news last night they were reporting the overheard radio conversation between a Separatist and a Russian adviser just after the airplane was shot down. It went something like this--

We got the plane <happy>
(moments later)
I think it was a civilian plane.
Are you sure?
We can see bodies falling.
We f--ked up!!

This suggests to me that the Separatists and the Russian advisers thought they were shooting down a Ukrainian military plane (they had shot down two or three in the past few days), instead shot down a civilian plane, and immediately realized they had made a huge mistake.

This is informational war. This audio was provided by Ukrainian Security Service and was later reported as fake - some cossacks discussing how they shot the plane, it was on YouTube, but why the audio file is dated 16.07? They made such fake audios before. Yesterday Ukrainian side was also demonstrating some photos of 'rebels evacuating Buk without one missile from the zone', found to be made on... territory controlled by Kiev. Some of photos were dated March 2014.

Ukrainian side still did not provide any documents and evidence related to traffic control. Few weeks ago Ukrainian news showed deployment of Ukrainian Buks in the area (for what - rebels have no airplanes?).

Meanwhile, Ukraine is using the situation and yesterday and today heavily shelling Lugansk - city on Ukrainian-Russian border with about 500,000 population. 44 civilians killed only yesterday, hundreds injured, buildings and infrastructure destroyed. I am sure Your channels do not show this hell.

 

[ImaginaryNumber]

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Those who are blocking access of international investigators to the crash site are those most likely to be found at fault when the whole story emerges.

 

[Alik]

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Those who are blocking access of international investigators to the crash site are those mostly likely to be found at fault when the whole story emerges.

Who is blocking? Not the rebels, OSCE group is already on site, I have seen in the news.

Again, this is evidently a well organized provocation, there was no sense no resources for the rebels to shoot this plane. They have shot few military planes but none of them close to this altitude. There are also no proofs that rebels have Buk system. It is too easy to believe in propaganda during information war, I understand that in Western world the guilty party are already appointed. And amazingly none of them is blaming Ukraine for evidently bringing the plane to war zone!

There was a lot of emotion about use of sarin on Syria, blaming, 'crossing red line', etc. But at the end of the day the report was "careful not to blame either side".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Report...the_Ghouta_Area_of_Damascus_on_21_August_2013
But who needs the investigation during the information war, right?

 

[ImaginaryNumber]

Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 'shot down' in Ukraine - as it happened | THE GUARDIAN

7.30pm BST
A site attributed to a separatist leader suggests rebels may have shot down MH17, but it has since been taken down and details remain unclear.

It features a comment saying "We just downed an An-26 near Torez. It's down somewhere near Progress mine," which suggests rebel forces may have believed the passenger jet to be a Ukrainian military transport plane.

The page, on the VKontakte social network, is attributed to Igor Girkin, who goes by the nom de guerre Strelkov and is the self-proclaimed military commander of the rebels. The page has been posting for rebels affiliated with Strelkov for weeks, and has some 130,000 followers.

A site from a VKontakte page attributed to Igor Girkin, known as Strelkov.
A screengrab from a VKontakte page attributed to Igor Girkin, known as Strelkov among east Ukrainian rebels.
Photograph: /VKontakte​

The post continues "We had warned them not to fly in 'our sky'" and says "here is video confirmation of the "downed little bird." The linked video is the same as that used in media reports on the crash...

Ukraine Says It Can Prove Russia Supplied Arms System That Felled Jet | NEW YORK TIMES

...At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border. Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said. The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m...

 

[Alik]

2ImaginaryNumber:
VKontakte:
I know this account, I read it. This is NOT Strelkov's personal account, they collect news from many sources and evidences. There is a warning about that on the top of page.

This particular message says: message from rebels: The AN26 was shut down. It does not say that that rebels shut it down.

Regarding Vitaly Nayda - I have seen that message as well. One of photos they use is clearly dated March 2014. You can see people wearing overcoats. Moreover, these photos are showing Ukrainian Buk, not Russian. But earlier general persecutor Yarema said that rebels did not capture any Ukrainian Buks.

This is ordinary lie from Ukrainian Government and I would not trust it unless I see real proofs, not fake photos from twitter. What we see now is hysteria in media, nothing more. On other side, Ukraine is hiding all traffic control data and not disclosing communication of plane with their control center.

One should understand that the people in power now in Ukraine have no moral principles nor humanity; say, on February 20 they shot both their own supporters and police to make the coup. So I would not believe in anything they say.

The main question is: why the flight was directed there by Ukrainian air traffic control, as previous flights did not cross that area. This remains unanswered but this is first question to ask. But western media seem to have ready 'answers' already, they do not need any investigations.

 

[pdwiley]

The main question is: why the flight was directed there by Ukrainian air traffic control, as previous flights did not cross that area. This remains unanswered but this is first question to ask. But western media seem to have ready 'answers' already, they do not need any investigations.

Not from where I'm sitting.

The main question in my mind is, who had the technical capacity, will and demonstrated ability plus intent to shoot down overflying planes in that area?

Guess what, that's the people you're so vehemently defending.

So as far as I'm concerned, the separatists and their Russian puppet masters are guilty until there is overwhelming proof that it was someone else.

If you don't like that, sorry, too bad. Stop defending mass murder and stop pushing conspiracy theories in an attempt to shift responsibility. In this case, in your position, saying nothing is the best thing you can do.

PDW

 

[Alik]

Not from where I'm sitting.

The main question in my mind is, who had the technical capacity, will and demonstrated ability plus intent to shoot down overflying planes in that area?

The fact is: Ukrainian troops have network of Buk systems in the area since May. It was in Ukrainian news. Russian MOD spokesman said 3 of Ukrainian Buks and 2 C300 were in reach of the site; they also report Ukrainian Buk radars were operating during the day, this is based on surveillance data (in am sure Western media does not quote this, right?). So, the Ukrainians are #1 who have technical capacity to take down the plane.

Another fact: the rebels have never shot anything on such altitude before. There are no proof that rebels had Buk systems, excerpt some dubious small-scale photos from twitter.

And one more fact, totally ignored: who directed the flight in the zone?

So as far as I'm concerned, the separatists and their Russian puppet masters are guilty until there is overwhelming proof that it was someone else.
PDW

Yes, this is what is this provocation about. They create the case and make others to prove they are innocent - not the legal way, but once media is involved who cares? Ukrainian government is the only one who strongly benefits from this accident. Everyone who used to think and not just to believe TV propaganda can clearly see the ears of Western sponsors behind this provocation. We might see some more details later this week, but from the facts we see now 80% probability is that Ukraine shot it.

Moreover, I know what will happen next - the experts will say that for some reasons detailed investigation is not possible and not clear which party shot it. So there is media storm with blaming, then no proofs and no results.
There is data from surveillance systems, satellite, traffic control, communication, etc. Neither side has presented it yet and looks that it will not be presented.

 

[whitepointer23]

1. There is information about serial numbers of 'lost' Malaysian plane and the one been shot in Ukraine:

- MH370 - 9M-MRO
- MH17 - 9M-MRD

Interesting, yes?

2. Then, info from the rebels side - the bodies found in plane do not seem to be 'fresh'. Not sure to believe or not.

3. Russian sources say the plane was hijacked to Diego Garcia base in Indian Ocean and later used for provocation against Russia.

4. It was surprising that Ukrainian media and officials started screaming about Malaysian plane shot just few minutes after it happened. They have no access to the site of crash (occupied by rebels), and also as they control the air traffic in that area they would be likely to to hide/investigate the story first. At least they would not claim it was shot from beginning.

I think you have to much spare time. Find something to keep your mind busy . This post is a load of alarmist rubbish.

 

[Alik]

I think you have to much spare time. Find something to keep your mind busy . This post is a load of alarmist rubbish.

I just quoted one of the existing versions. This thread is about lost plane or not?

 

[TeddyDiver]

Neither side has presented it yet and looks that it will not be presented.

And that's what makes it more important to have a neutral investigation on the matter. You can't thrust on neither Russians nor Ukrainian becouse they have only propaganda, politically induced propaganda which has created the whole conflict.
Not that I would thrust most of what's been said by the western politicians either but..

 

[Alik]

And that's what makes it more important to have a neutral investigation on the matter. You can't thrust on neither Russians nor Ukrainian becouse they have only propaganda, politically induced propaganda which has created the whole conflict.
Not that I would thrust most of what's been said by the western politicians either but..

Right. We can only thrust facts and objective control and surveillance, not presented yet. But situation when Australian PM is already openly blaming Russia in this accident is unacceptable.

And any investigation starts with the question: who's benefit? and the motive?