News and theories about the missing Malaysian plane

Discussion in 'All Things Boats & Boating' started by Angélique, Mar 25, 2014.

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  1. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Good that you worked a boat into this thread, Angelique, it has been un-boat-like to date. :D
     
  2. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    this is a picture of the submersible used to look for the plane, it supposedly maps the bottom. It would be interesting to see the image of the bottom, I wonder if it will turn up other lost ships.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Here's an unusually clear sample of two wrecked ships; they're not always this easy to recognize -

    [​IMG]
     
  4. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    the royal visit has taken over our news this week and the plane search has been pushed to the background. are they still searching or is the search over. tonight there is a doco on discovery about it.
     
  5. GhostriderIII
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    GhostriderIII Junior Member

    The pinger is only activated when it goes underwater. The one on USAirways 1549 into the Hudson didn't activate because it wasn't underwater.

    Temperature has little effect on the boxes. We've found them in Arctic waters still working @ 28 days. The batteries are replaced by the carrier and/or the jet's builder every year. No telling if Malaysian did it. All I know is they didn't do the upgrade as recommended by Boeing.

    Of note - certain models of 777's were given Thales Uninterruptible Auto Pilots. These were designed after 2001 to give ground control over a 7500 transponder squawk or turn off. Boeing has the patent since 08. I still wonder how they managed to turn off the RR engine pings manually from the cockpit.
     
  6. Sailor Alan
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    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    Missing Malaysian Plane

    Colleagues.

    Interesting your skepticism, and the form it takes. You are right to question statements, though on this forum i would hope most information given should be reasonably reliable, we are discussing serious subjects, boat design and building.

    My employment and position at a major PNW aerospace manufacturer should be a matter of public record. I finished preliminary design of the 777 in 1990, and you are right, i do not remember exact details of the cab configuration from then. We handed it off to Alan Mulalies crew for production drawings etc.

    Perhaps to set your mind at rest, i am also a ‘fellow’ of the Royal Aeronautical society. My “Fellowship” was awarded by The President of the Royal Society who awards just one “Fellowship” each year, and i was the 2011 recipient, “for outstanding contributions to aerospace”, a bit like a nobel prize for aerospace.

    Now to the serious bits, even slightly boat related. The tracking of the airplane from the IMERSTAT information was quite brilliant. By using the doppler characteristics from the ‘handshake’ part of the signal between the airplane and the LEO satellite, they established a pair of position lines. Just like the position lines we might establish from a star sight, they were curves across the earth that intercepted at two points. These two intercept points were West of Australia, and North in Burma. Unlike the time i was navigating across the pacific to Fiji, when one of my crossing points was near Fiji, and the other was up in New Guinea, and i had no issues deciding which was relevant, in this case the 777 could have passed through either point. Due to the fact that radar overage in the Burma peninsula was quite good, and the plane didn't turn up anywhere there. It was assumed, correctly, as it turned out, that the plane had flown south. A nice bit of old fashioned applied navigation here.

    Now the question of the lack of EPIRB signals. This is valid. There are 4, or more, EPIRB’s on board, one in each escape slide/rescue float. This number depends on seating configuration, and a number of other factors. These beacons are part of the escape slide package which is stowed on the inside of the 777‘s passenger doors. An extra one is sometimes carried in the ceiling area. These beacons do not actually activate until the emergency door opening mechanism is used, and do not activate on hitting water, a precaution against moisture (condensation) setting them off. Even if they did, i suspect they would be underwater before their RF signals could be heard.

    I have to disagree with the person who described the plane nosing in after running out of fuel. Under ETOPS (Extended Twin Operations, or Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming, take your pick) rules the APU must be running, but as none of the legs in the original flight plane required ETOPS rules (it was not far enough from diversion airports), the APU would have been stopped. As soon as the engines ran out of fuel, the RAT (Ram Air Turbine) would pop out and maintain power and hydraulics to all flight controls. Under these circumstances the autopilot would have attempted to maintain altitude, and/or speed, depending on the setting, whilst maintaining wings level. Again, depending on which setting the autopilot was on, the plane would have glided evenly down to the surface. Under some modes of the autopilot the plane might have stalled, but even if so, it would have remained wings level, and lost 2,000’ before recovering into flight. Note; though the APU has a separate fuel supply, it does not have a separate tank, so when the tanks are dry, they are all dry. Note: the autopilot is also much better are recovering from stalls that most pilots.

    How did the “Pings” appear. As soon as they were thoroughly wet, a precaution against humidity, they would have started “pinging’, even inside the rear fuselage. The ‘range’ of the pingers is a misnomer, the have a given power in watts, and this could be heard for many miles in ideal conditions. Please note, loss of voltage from the batteries results in reduced power, NOT a change in frequency in these pingers. The density of the water, and movement of the receiver, will change the apparent frequency, but not by that much. Thermoclines, thermal layers in the ocean will distort these signals too.

    Again, any questions, especially about the plane and i will be happy to answer.
     
  7. Navygate

    Navygate Previous Member

    Good on 'ya Alan.
    I used to fly.
    But they're not EPIRB's they're ELT's, no?
     
  8. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    glad your back to alan, I was not trying to insult you.
     
  9. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Not much on the Royal Visit here (Canada), the Korean ferry sinking has taken over the front page. The media's attention span for MH370 has run out - it's amazing they stayed on it for more than a month - or maybe the experts have stopped talking. There's only so many ways they can tell us the search is continuing. I understand Bluefin-21 is about 50% through the designated search area.
     
  10. Navygate

    Navygate Previous Member

    Correct.
    I understand 7 sorties have concluded, to no avail.
    7 more to go... then perhaps that will be the end of it should nothing be found.
    Time will tell.
     
  11. Navygate

    Navygate Previous Member

    Cheers :)
     
  12. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    I doubt that'll be the end of it, the search will continue for a long time yet I imagine. It took two years to find the black boxes from Air France 447 . . .
     
  13. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    The question arises of who will be, and/or should be, footing the bill, if the current search turns nothing up, for ongoing searches.
     
  14. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Probably the countries which provided the search vessels, planes and teams. I would guess Australia, Chine, US, UK, with Malaysia first in line for claims from relatives along with the manufacturer if the cause cannot be proved. Of course since the Malaysian officials have been rather free with suspicions about the captain they may have given Boeing a get-out-of-jail card on that front. I suspect search costs tend to be exaggerated by including everyday running cost of military equipment and personnel normally maintained in the region rather than extra costs, but who knows . . .
     

  15. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    I wonder what Plan B is, if the current search area proves empty of clues.
     
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