Newbie needs help

a.g- a friend of mine ~5 years ago took on the same sort of project,replete with rotten wood.
Last year he gave up on it,having spendt $$$$ and years of time wasted replacing all the rot,after realizing he was maybe half done.

If he'd started a new boat-faster,cheaper,easier-he'd have been sailing 3 years ago.....

 

Andy,

Do not let the crumugens on this list discourage you, your dream boat might be still be salvageable. But here is the real issue, how much are you willing to put into this particular boat? I would get someone who knows hulls well get a look at it in person, even as a favor if possible. You have to weight out the difference between rebuilding, building new, or buying used.

Try first to identify the boat (which it appears no one has done yet, or did I miss it?). And than find out something about the boat type, if it was not a very good design, talking to other owners (or former owners) of the type, it does not sound like something worth owning, than salvaging the parts might be your best bet. Try and get out on a good example that someone else owns (even if you have to travel to go see it), most boat owners would be very happy to take you out on theirs if they sail regularly anyway (any chance to go sailing and talk boats is a good reason to go). That trailer is worth quite a lot by itself (and likely more the hull at this point).

If the boat looks like something worth owning, than your next job is to try and hunt down a set of plans. With that, at worst, you can build a new hull and than transfer all the hardware, rigging and fittings to your new hull. Building a boat from scratch (well you will not be quite from scratch) is a big job, and really a multi-year long hobby. All the labor involved has some value (even with a part time job), usually it would be cheaper to buy a good used boat. Do not build it to save money, build only because you enjoy building boats. Do not worry about the skills and experience required, you will learn those as you go.

With someone looking at it in person, you might find that it might only need some new hull planking, and a lot of stripping and refinishing. This is much less work and cost than building new. Even than you need to carefully weight that against buying a seaworthy hull and refurbishing it, using this one for the trailer and salvage. OTOH, if most of the primary structure needs replacing, consider building new from plans and using the hardware from this boat on the new one. That will save you more than half the cost of building a new boat.

Right now there are lot of decent sailboats out there to be had at great prices. Sometimes even free boats, I recently did some work for a guy that had 3 large sailboats (28 to 36 feet), and 2 small ones, all he got for free, or near free. Some just needed a lot of clean-up and had perfectly good hulls on them. The marinas and storage yard auction off abandon boats monthly, some selling for as little as $25 US, really nice complete boats selling for $5000 US. So if your goal is just owning a sailboat, there are much easier ways to get one.

OTOH, if this boat has some family history or has some sentimental value to you, AND it will not require a complete rebuild, there are sometimes other reasons to take on a project like this.

You might also hook up with a local club and get out on other peoples sailboats to see if you even like sailing. Some people find the idea romantic but only find it is too much work, discomfort and expensive to really enjoy. If sailing is not for you, than just salavage what you can, sell the trailer and pull out a beer and see what you can find to enjoy on the Telly tonight.

Good luck.

 

Wow!!! That's some post

Thanks for the time you've put into that very helpfull post.

I'm looking at a few other boats now.
I havn't completely given up on this boat but i've certainly shelved the idea until i'm much more well informed before I spend any cash.

I'm looking at a little boat on ebay.co.uk called a Seasafe dandy ebay item number 280555785630.

Seems like a nice little boat and for someone who's new to sailing as well as building might be a good starting point and a platform for me to learn about sailing whilst I either work on the bigger boat or salvage what I can and buy or build another.

I'd stil love to know what the big boat is though.
Been trawling the net for images but don't really know where to start.
As oyu point out this boat has some sentimental value and even if I just chip away at it over many years I'd love to see her sailing again. It's a boat which belonged to family friends when I was a child and they're now losing their business and property and are sad to see the boat rotting and I'd really like do one day see her float again.

But I'm certailny not going to throw huge sums of cash and time at this project without serious thought and research.

I've phoned a few boatyards and got a couple of guys coming to look at the hull for me next week. I guess that'll be the make or breakpoint.

Regards

Andy

 

Andy,

A great way to get some building experience, and some sailing time, is to build a small tender (12 to 16 feet long) out of the same method and materials as your dream boat (lots of great plans available for low cost or free). A few hundred hours of spare time and not much more in material costs (shop carefully looking for material bargains all the time) will teach you a lot about boat building. And you get a great little day sailor in the deal as well. And a boat you can use as a tender on the yacht if you do ever complete/overhaul the yacht. Sailing a small responsive dingy is a much better way to learn sailing anyway.

That way you do not invest too much time or money finding out you really do not like working in a dusty shop all the time (I love it). It will come together fast enough you will not loose interest in getting it finished. It will be a great confidence booster as well, it will teach you a lot about building, sailing, and about yourself (and your spouse too!).

Keep us posted. Good luck.

 

Assuming you bought it, or were given it free, besides any lead inside, the trailer could be sold as a "yard trailer", the stanless steel pulpit and mast gear, and maybe windows look worth advertising.

 

As to an optional method for disposal, there are resturants, miniture golf courses, and other nautical theme businesses that use such boats in landscaping and signage. You might look to ad agencies, auctioneers and developers in such commercial ventures. Your boat rminded me of a sea food resturant in Lake Charles, La. You can salvage the loss and start over as suggested.....if that is what you decide to do. I wouldn't attempt such extensive repairs, but others seem to think it is possible, no judgent on that at all.

 

Dear A.G

Dont let thse fellows drag your spirit into the dump.
your boat is a wonderfully beautiful boat thats seen some hard abuses layed upon her, vessels like yours are becoming very rare to find desighners just dont build real beauty into there boats any more. most are busy making boats that bring them top dollar . look down a street today at a glance and look at cars in genral ...there all looking the same!.
Now for the details of your boat first off i would do a serious in dpeth evaluation to the extent of the decay of the hull entirly.
both structral members and its hull skin.
more than 40% loss would be strongly indicative of of previous advices given in the forum.
but there is even variables in what it is thats actully decayed beyond any hope.
from what ive read of your post you seem to really have the right spirit and thats Half the tools needed to bring your boat back to its full glory. and more significantly the right to say YOU did it! ( inspite of the money laiden old puff in the winds).
a good hope indicator is to look and dig closly to the hull members from the water line down, if there not rotted out or cracked in many place then its worth having a run at. a couple of ribs here and there are fixable the real hammer would be to have the frame ends near the keel rotted .
everything else is replaceable with patience and fortatude.
the tip of your finger nail will tell you a great deal in wether or not to replace a piece of wood or not. or a simple nail (Dont use a sharp awl , it wont give you a good sense of the density of the wood itself.
I have restored boats in worse condition than yours appesrs to be in only to find that in most instances it was no where near as bad as i thought it may be.
so get yourself a 16 penny nail ,Not sharpened! and go to digging below that waterline if the nail easily sinks past the diamond shaped point then its most likly needing to be replaced but not neccesarily if its only in a very local spot and not through the member.
also look closly at all the joints check those carefully, epoxys and body filler can work wonders at fixing minor rot damage as long as the structral inegrity hasnt been sacrificed beyond its ability to hold a fastener to capacity ,I.E screws bolts, etc,
make sure you get your spouse involved in this procees too, because she will most likly be your most valued support team and working together in the indeavor will greatly enhance your relationship as a working team and in spirit.
and when you do take your restored yacht out for that first shake down run the both of you can swoon in harmony.
when or if you finally do decide that its game on, do yourslef a huge favor , use the best matreials you can afford, beleve me it will pay huge dividends in less work later. be inovative and dont be affraid to think outside the box.
boat restoration and building ISNT a click to be in , in fact the finest craft are desighned and built by those who are slightly off center :idea: .
But most all! your best boat building tool will be your spirit and attitude.
Be pateint, work carfully, and never forget murphy was a grunt and he will drop anchor on your toes if you get careless.
good craftmanship is merly a attitude and a ton of patience and the willingness to make a new one when your first one is cut from a pattern flip the wrong way,<<personal experience entry
Ok.. if your gonna Do it.. get that thing under a good cover that you can easily work in get it absoul;uty dry inside and out. that will put a stop on any further decay. Rot Is a Fubgus and beleve it or not it needs a pretty specific enviroment to live in ,,, kind of like that damp spong on the kithchen sik thing.
it wont live in absouluty dry areas or soaking wet ,, if ever in dought look at a t piling near the water line and note the hour glass shape ( not related to a mermaid .
boats like yours were most likly built inside out, upside down, and bottom to top, so to get at members or fix any thing youl have to do the reverse to get to it.
if you have to replace a piece try to allways remove as much of the old one as possible intact so it can be used as a pattern.
Ok I better stop typing now I know theres gonna be some folks on here who wants to have a go at flaming my undies too. but after building 32 boats from scratch and restoring many others I have very fire retardant underwear.
My hats of to you sir and go really look deeply at your boat before you give up on her.

As for you spelling and grammer freaks out there! yes i know i mispelled
Yes. I know i dont write well
but as with many things, some people are cut out for grammer schools or spellings bees.
some of us build boats!

 

The saga continues

Well more news on the progess this weekend

I've put the old rotten boat to on side and am finding a place for it to be under cover for the time being until I have the space to begin investigative work

In the meentime I have found a boat which I'm almost certailny going to buy to learn to sail

She's a Pandora International 22ft
She comes with a large selection of sails in good order, a nice little tender, a 2.2hp Ymaha outboard, a couple of anchors and various other bits and pieces, including a bilge pump and stuff.
She's been recently antifouled and needs nothing more than a little rub down and varnish on topside timbers.
She's on her own trailer and the owner who's a lovely guy of advancing years, says he'll take me out for a few half days instruction with my wife.

All this for £2200

What's the verdict.
I havnt commited to buy yet but will do so later this week if you lot (meant affectionately and with respect) think she seems like a nice boat and a good idea.

This way I have a sensible start to sailing and a project to get into over a few years.
I may stil decide to give up on the restoration but i'll see exactly how much timber needs replacing first.

Andy

 

A silly invention?????

Ok, now don't laugh
Has anyone even invented a set of brackets which would be attached to the sides of a fin keel boat, into which one could slide four lenths of steel tubing so that it would be possible to moor in shallow water where normally only bilge keel boats can moor.

I'm only asking as this Pandora is a fin keel, which is great.
but the most convenent place for me to moor would be near my parents farm where the tide goes right out.

pretty much all of the boats there are bilge keels but one guy ties his fin keel to the harbour wall (can't imagine it's a very good idea but what do I know)

I was just thinking, it surely would be possible to have four pieces of tubular steel with mounting brackets for this purpose?

Crazy idea or already been done?

Andy

 

Search for pictures of the channel coast ports. You will find proven systems to assist a keel boat standing on the hard at low tide.

To your Pandora:

pictures, pictures, pictures...........................................................


None of us can tell you if it´s a bargain or not. But some of us can find flaws just at a first glimpse.

It sounds like a fair deal or better. The fact that the owner does not fear a very close inspection and going out to sea is a good indicator.

Do NOT let you talk into the restoration task!

All of these people advising that way with overwhelming enthusiasm, but as little info as we have at present, risk your time and money, not theirs!!!!

Everything is possible, no doubt. The question is if it is sensible. In this case, most probably not.
Do not spend any money on that boat before you know exactly what you are in for!

I will try to lure PAR here, he has seen more of such objects and restored more of them than any one of us here.

Regards
Richard

 

The sheer appears fairly reasonable, clearly there's some lower chine issues, rudder, deadwood and deck structure issues too, but without a full, professional inspection, difficult to tell from here. The usual advise for a novice boat restorer or someone just looking for their first project is to start with a reasonable base. At first glance this doesn't seem a good prospect for this, but a survey may prove me wrong.

A. G. it would be best to advice you to find a better starting point. This one has so many possible pit falls, that even a well skilled carpenter could become easily overwhelmed by the various tasks. In this economic market, you have the advantage and the "picken's" are plentiful. Choice your poison wisely.

 

The pandora 22 sounds like a good place to start if you are bent on ownership. Watch your budget, boat you can trailer home would save a lot of cost and maintance, but at cost of inconvenicence.

A local yacht club will get you time on the water is in a boat belonging to someone else (as crew), and exposed you to local experience, lessons, help and friends that will look over a possible purchase.

 

Pics of my pandora

Thank again for everyones time and efforts.

I've spoken to the local college where they run a yacht repair and sailing course and it looks like the college may be interested in restoring my yacht as a student project if I pay for the parts. I would be able to take part in some of the work as and when I have time.

As for the Pandora International
Her name is Milyn, i've found lots of information on her just by googloing "Pandora Milyn"

Here's some piccies
I'm going up to see her at the weekend so will take lots more.
Incidentally, what's the score on changing her name? Is is a legal issue or am I ok to simply change the name?

Andy

 

Also,
When I went to look at the boat, the owner lifted up the keel cover inside and showed me that by tapping the keel bolts gently the sound was soild and not ringing which is apparently a good thing (what do I know lol).

He also said that when they lifted the boat recently to antifoul he inslected the keel mounting (I forget what it's called ) and that it's all solid with no sideways movement on the keel.

The boat is on dry land on the trailer and after looking at a number of other boats that day (all of which had puddles in and smelt damp) this one was bone dry and has clearly been very well looked after.

The keel bolts looked ever so slightly rusty by the way but not coroded at all and looked like, with a bit of release oil, they'd undo nicely. Do you think it's worth hoisting the boat and dropping the keel slightly to inpect the condition of the bolts?

The little Yamaha outboard 2.2 looks very clean and again well maintained. The owner had it mounted on his immacluate and well organised bench in his garage to demonstrate for me.

The sails appear to be in good condition, there are two tiny (pinprick) holes in the mainsail which the owner said I'd do well to have patched.

The trailer is a bit manky so once the boat is in the water over next summer I shall recondition the trailer, weld some new strenghtheners into it and give it a good rub down and paint with hammerite.

 

The local yard will do winter storage (while I do some small jobs like re-varnishing the timbers on the topside) for £9 per meter, which works out as £49 for the whole winter.
After that I've found a deep water mooring outside a marina not far away which will do me an anual space for £200ish. I'd probably bring the boat out of the water each winter as the UK in winter isn't good sailing i wouldn't have thought.

That seems very affordable to me.
Can't afford the local marina, that's like £167 per meter per year but the mooring outside seems ok.

Andy