New Zealand glue options - some local advice sought

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by bylsand, Aug 28, 2015.

  1. bylsand
    Joined: Aug 2015
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    Location: Westport, New Zealand

    bylsand Junior Member

    Hi all, first post here. I'm based in New Zealand and have just started building a stitch n glue plywood pram. Living in a remote rural area we don't have any specialist marine shops. Mitre10 stocks the Norski range, but I can't quite get my head around the technical jargon to know what I should buy. I gather Epoxy resin gives the best performance but is nasty to work with, are there less toxic options?
    Thanks, Brett
     
  2. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    Ebay is a good place for epoxy when you are rural. It gets posted to you. I don't know of anything else you could use. Epoxy is a major part of a stitch and glue construction.
     
  3. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    On ebay you get epoxy for a fraction of hardware store price.
     
  4. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Check into getting Botecote epoxy. It comes out of Queensland, though there might be a local distributor near you, it can be shipped.

    I'm not sure where your information is coming from but, epoxy isn't nasty to work with, particularly compared to polyester or vinylester. If building a taped seam (stitch and glue) boat, then epoxy is the only choice. All the adhesive choices are toxic to some degree.
     
  5. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Location: Australia

    waikikin Senior Member

    I think the choices are similar to oz
    FGI/Nuplex http://www.nuplex.com/composites for R180 range of epoxies
    AD TECH http://www.adhesivetechnologies.co.nz/

    I think "Epicraft" originated in nz- epiglue & HT epoxy range now from "International paints/Akzo Nobel"
    As Par mentioned Bote Cote/ Boatcraft may be available there.

    See this- http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/HowTo-Publications/User Manual 2012 Part1.pdf

    You can apply the same principles as "west" to nearly any epoxy resin system.... just substitute the numbered & marked up west products for generic extenders. I think international has parralel systems /pumps etc, some digital kitchen scales come in handy for batching also in the quantities you need.
    Jeff
     
  6. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    6 kg marine epoxy resin kit on fleabay from composite suuplies sydney. $163 . You can order bote cote or west sys online but i think they would cost more and are the same thing any way. These people can supply your cloth as well.
     
  7. bylsand
    Joined: Aug 2015
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    Location: Westport, New Zealand

    bylsand Junior Member

    Thanks people, freighting stuff out of America to New Zealand usually more than doubles the landed price. Information sources so far are John Welsford "Backyard Boatbuilder" p22 and Robert Steward "Boatbuilding Manual" p 135, both seem to suggest that Epoxy is (at least potentially) more toxic than other products. Yet I've watched a couple of (American) youtubers applying resin to small wooden boats without any protection at all! Is phenol formaldehyde (Resorcinol) not much of an option? Cheers, Brett
     
  8. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    If you wear and generally swim in uncured epoxy, then yes, it's pretty toxic, but the same is true of polyester, vinylester, polyurethane, etc. Have a look at the chemical concoction in resorcinol and tell me you'd be willing to bath in it.

    This said, with appropriate safety precautions, you'll be fine. Epoxy is less problematic than the others, if used with protection. Climb into a cabinet or other closed space, to apply some styrene based products and see how long you stay conscious. Not the case with epoxy.

    Resorcinol was an industry standard, but was easily overtaken by epoxy once viscosity modifiers were added at the end of the 60's. Resorcinol requires lots of clamping pressure, very closely fitted joints and ideal temperatures. None of this is necessary with epoxy, so you pick your poison (literally).
     
  9. bylsand
    Joined: Aug 2015
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    Location: Westport, New Zealand

    bylsand Junior Member

    Brilliant. So can you help me with what the difference is between epoxy glue and epoxy resin? I'm kinda getting the impression that one is a thinned down version of the other... Does one need to mix de-natured alcohol into the epoxy mix to de-water it? One you-tuber I watched did and seemed to suggest that it was imperative. Also, is it necessary or advisable to buy a proprietary filler powder or can one improvise...?
     
  10. kfly
    Joined: Jul 2009
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    Location: NZ

    kfly Junior Member

    Trademe.co.nz is your best bet. NZfibreglass.co.nz lists their products on there but you'll probably get a better price contacting them directly. Should be looking at a bit over $100 (NZD) for a 5 litre kit
     
  11. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Bylsand, you need to download the free "Epoxy Book" at systemthree.com and the "User's Guides" at westsystem.com and have a good hard look at what epoxy is and does, as you're misinformed. As a rule, you do NOT want to dilute epoxy with anything, particularly solvents. There's lot of stuff online, including compelling arguments about the earth being flat and the moon landing filmed in the Arizona desert, but do yourself a big favor and look at the formulators information and leave YouTube alone for a while. West System is the industry leader and though you can learn a lot from folks online, much of it isn't worth watching and full of mistake and bad procedures. Read up on the proper procedures first, then see if you can associate what you've learned with some video.
     
  12. bylsand
    Joined: Aug 2015
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    Location: Westport, New Zealand

    bylsand Junior Member

    Thanks PAR, the Epoxy Book is a good read not to mention some hilarious cartoons. Cheers kfly, Ross is certainly on the ball, had kinda thought I'd prefer to buy local, but then the budget will only stretch so far. What are people's thoughts about the pre-wet vs dry-start techniques when glassing?
     
  13. tdem
    Joined: Oct 2013
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    Location: NZ

    tdem Senior Member

    If you are near Hamilton I highly recommend visiting The Fibreglass Shop.

    http://www.fibreglassshop.co.nz

    They list all their prices online, ship NZ wide with free shipping on orders over $100.
     
  14. tdem
    Joined: Oct 2013
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    Location: NZ

    tdem Senior Member

    For any interior work (not the seams) you can also get titebond II or titebond III on trademe. It's been used succesfully on many boats.

    I've tried a few of the construction glues with some success, but it's really not more cost effective than epoxy and won't work with S&G.
     

  15. bylsand
    Joined: Aug 2015
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    Location: Westport, New Zealand

    bylsand Junior Member

    Thanks tdem, do you know why nzfibreglass would be able to have 5 litres of epoxy for $109 where the fibreglass shop sell 4 litres for $159.50? Is that just the premium for the West System name or is there a range of qualities in the epoxy?
     
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