New Trimaran Foilers

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Jun 8, 2016.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Welcome to the forum and to the New Trimaran Foilers thread!
    Seem to be a lot of foilers being produced for some market:
    1-UFO
    2-Moth
    3-WASP
    4-A Class cat
    5-C Class cat
    6-Flo1
    7-Pocket
    8-Quant 17
    9-Quant 23
    10-S9
    11-IFly 15
    12-Whisper
    13-Skeeta
    14-TF10 trimaran
    15-GC 32 Super Cat
    16-Flying Phantom
    17-Nacra FCS
    18-G4 cruiser /racer cat
    19-Kite Foilers
    20-Foiling Windsurfers
    21-Gonet Monofoiler
    22-Foiling Optimist
    23- NACRA 17
    24- F101 trimaran
    and more....
    I think there is a major problem with some views on foiling: it's not all about speed-its about flying. More and more foilers are being designed to fly in the lightest air so that the boat is usable as a foiler throughout the wind range.
    ----
    New Catamaran Foilers https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/new-catamaran-foilers.51898/
    --
    New Monohull Foilers 2018 https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/new-monohull-foilers-2018.59882/
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
  2. Tink
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    Tink Junior Member

    I don’t argue that lots have designs have been launched. The UFO has traction and in the UK the Wazp have sold a few and the Nacra 17 being an Olympic boat will be sailed. But I would still argue than foiling is a long way away for the majority of club sailors. Low rider dinghies like the Aero and D - zero must be out selling all the foilers by a large factor.
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    The thing is that foiling is a revolution involving boats of every type from 10' to 100+ ' . It is an ongoing development where about 18 of the boats on my list weren't even there just three years ago. Much of foiling development has been affected by preconceived notions of what it's all about-how much wind it takes to foil, how "light" a boat has to be to foil, and that foiling is all about speed.
    Foiling is about the experience of flying! The Quant 23 and now the Gonet Monofoiler have squashed rumors that abounded that a keelboat couldn't foil. The Quant 23 was designed specifically to be able to fly in light air(take-off in 5-6 knots of wind) as was the Whisper(takeoff in 4-5 knots of wind). Many new foilers emphasize the ease of learning to foil.
    Foilers will never replace all other forms of sailing but there will continue to be new types of foilers emphasizing ease of sailing, light air takeoff and excellent control in heavy conditions. It's a revolution in sailing ,but foiler technology is evolving, continuing to improve, becoming easier(less athletic) to sail and able to foil in very light air and more affordable. It's an exciting and fun part of sailing!
     
  4. Tink
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    Tink Junior Member

    Don’t get me wrong it is all wonderful development and some great science and engineering is happening, my point is I think most of them are vanity projects without any chance of lasting and commercial success. A couple of the craft will still be about in five years but most not. It will be a very long time before participation rates get above 10%.

    Perhaps rather than everyone coming up with different designs it would be better if a simple set of class rules like the A,B,C and D class catamaran rules.
     
  5. Tink
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    Tink Junior Member

    Spending a lot of time a boat taxi for my daughter doing the circuit. Have visited in excess of ten clubs in the past six months seen lots of people sailing. I have seen two Waszps one didn’t leave the dinghy park, one was owned by two guys who are apparently experienced sailors. It was a perfect day, steady wind about a 3 to 4, both owners sailed the Waszp and genuinely a Mirror dinghy was going faster, never close to getting on foils.

    The only viable concept I have seen for mass market sailing is the UFO but sadly Mr Trump has made it unlikely we will see many in Europe (EU imposing 25% tax on boats from USA in relation to his blinkered view on how to operate in a global economy and grown your countries economy at the same time)

    Had look back at your list and nothing changes my view - can’t find any reference to the Pocket, please give me a link. Your are grasping at straws with the foiling Optimist.

    Have the designers of things like the Flo-1 been on a start line.

    Designers have a moral responsibility to design safe products, some of these are going to repeat what happened to Franck Cammas and eventually have a fatality. If you have ever had to do a Zurich Hazard Assement you would conclude the same thing. The sad thing is that these dangerous designs are going to result in a ban for all foilers at many clubs.

    From what I have seen only the UFO and the Waszp have had safety as serious consideration.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    There's a link at the bottom of post 151 to the Pocket Foiler.
    --Cammas fell off his boat! The foil did not reach up and grab him. If you fall off any high speed boat-power or sail you will likely be hurt. If you collide with another highspeed boat-power or sail you will likely get hurt and do some damage.
    Regardless of the type of foiler you're sailing, you have a responsibility to control the boat in such a way as to not injure or hurt yourself, your crew or another boat or crew. Failure to accept that responsibility is the essence of poor seamanship. That goes for every boat-not just foilers!

    Foiling Optimist:
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    STING 600 Foiler by Len Surtees:
    Heard back from Len just now:

    Here are some pics
    1/ port bow , a good look from sheet plywood.
    2/ STING #1 folded.
    3/ as hull swings forward, the net has to be unhooked at forward beam and along float deck , easy done and then allows folding, pleased with result.
    The starboard float is underway and hopeful to launch July.
    Have sent my revised swing beams that I have redesigned from marine plywood and internal timber to structural yacht engineer for tick of approval, if ok then that is a big savings for the builder.
    There are many things to add to my web site like bill of material, cost to build, list of plan detail like full size frames, metal components, other rigs that can be utilised, etc.
    As this is not a composite production boat or a one class design with all their restrictions allows some freedom for the builder especially for the Sports version but the Foiling model will need to build close as possible to the plans and weights.
    Doug you can share this if you like.
    Best regards
    Len Surtees


    Surtees 600 1.jpg

    Surtees 600 3.jpg

    Surtees 600 2.jpg
     
  8. Tink
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    Tink Junior Member

    People will always fall off boats, it is an inevitable event. Some of the current foilers have the foils in the zone where the crew member is likely to fall or travel after he or she has fallen. Because of the speed of the foiling boat is faster the impact energy will be increased and so the injury will be more severe.
    The person in the water may not be a member of the crew the foiling boat and may impact the sailor in the water at high speed.

    I am not saying that foiling is bad just that some of the designs where the foils are outside the beam of the boat are a fatality in waiting. The development of foiling boats has been truly amazing but if safety is not given a higher priority poor design will have a very negative effect on foiling as a whole.

    Obviously I am referring to day sailing, close racing not offshore boats.
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    It comes down to seamanship , familiarity/training with the foiler they are sailing and personal responsibility. I can't think of a single foiler whose design should be modified in case someone falls off .*
    Some have criticized the Quant 23 and other boats with the same foil type but they are wrong. In three years of sailing and racing not a single accident of any kind that I am aware of. During that same period two people died in capsized trapeze boats.
    On the Quant 23 in the picture the foil is below and in front of the crew-and unlike other foilers the Quant does not crash. Sailing a boat like this requires training, commonsense and good seamanship. The record of the boat speaks for itself.
    -----
    * except possibly catamarans with T-foil rudders sticking out beyond the beam could be changed to "L" foils pointing inboard to reduce the risk of a camaesque accident.
    Foils where the trailing edge is directly in front of the crew on a boat that is known to crash could have a dulled instead of sharp trailing edge .



    Quant 23 flying.jpg
     
  10. Tink
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    Tink Junior Member

    You really have no experience of risk analysis do you. The population of trapeze boats is considerably more than foiling craft so you can’t compare the incidences. In 2017 in the UK 2 people died of drowning while sailing, 106 died while walking or running. Without knowing the relative populations it is a silly statistic.

    Other than beginners, serious racers being coached and the various moth schools I don’t think many sailors have any training. People will buy these boats, may have a demo and then have to learn on the job. Clearly they are exiting, and people will naturally push themselves beyond their envelope of experience.

    Collisions are a day to day part of competitive sailing, even professionals make errors. If and it is a massive if the population of the boats like the one above increase there will be collisions with injuries.

    Car manufacturers now design their cars to be safe to pedestrians that is at a thirty mph impact. Two of these colliding up wind / down wind will have a higher impact speed.

    Luckily as my first comment in this thread the public has very little appetite for these craft and the few successful ones UFO, moth and Waszp are of a safer design.

    Out of interest which of these craft do you own

    And as I said before nothing wrong with foiling it a great science and engineering- just has to be designed with all water users in mind.

    Foiling has been hyped by the media selling real and virtual advertising space and had no impact on the vast majority of actually sailors. Standup paddle boarding has exploded over the same period with all sorts of different disciplines because it is cheap, accessible and not time consuming. Participation in sailing comes from simplifying and fitting in with peoples busy life styles. Hobbies cat, Laser, Wind surfing, kite surfing etc all have simplified the sport.
     
  11. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Thats an unfortunate characterization of foiling-a part of sailing that permeates almost every type of boat from windsurfers, kitesurfers to 100+' foiling trimarans. My second foiler is being designed now: High Performance MPX Foil/Self-righting Trimaran-The Test Model https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/high-performance-mpx-foil-self-righting-trimaran-the-test-model.36058/page-182 It uses a revolutionary foil system that I developed . If I can get it built it will be a whole different kind of foiler with the emphasis on light air takeoff and extreme comfort.
    Foiler development is an exciting area where super cool boats are being developed to make foiling easy, comfortable and affordable and safe.
     
  12. Tink
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    Tink Junior Member

    Looks like an interesting project, hope your development works out for you. Speed sailing was my thing back in the eighties. I competed in the 1987 speed week (unsuccessfully) it was the year of a great storm which wreaked many boats including Icarus II and boast from the US. It was great to see the early developments of kite surfing - flexifoils and a water ski and Icarus I on foils. I was obsessed by proas and built two with the last one used to test two different configurations which I believe worked will giving a limited budget. Foiling has now made proas only feasible for a limited specialised applications - low tech raid events etc.

    Anyway my interest are now much slower types of craft but appreciate what foilers a re trying to do.
     
  13. Tink
    Joined: Jun 2018
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    Tink Junior Member

    BE4E6CD5-0091-42F7-8456-834ACD9B4E88.jpeg
    Do you do much CAD modelling. I use Onshape it is a free online CAD packaged that works very well. It works well on IPad. This is my latest design - SOF peapod -
     
  14. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    None. I prefer to build an actual model both for testing like the Fire Arrow and to flesh out a concept like WOLF.
    Good luck with your boat....
     

  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Sting 600 Foiler by Len Surtees--
    Here is a note from Len I just received:

    Hi Doug
    Really good news, my ply/timber beams that I designed to replace costly composite beams on my new STING 600 have been given the tick of approval by structural yacht engineer Peter Schwarzel.
    STING 600 will be launched this month so am getting a little bit excited.
    Please share this good news.
    Doug you and your fellow citizens have a great 4th of July.
    Best regards
    Len Surtees
     
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