New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Petros, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. Segler
    Joined: Apr 2015
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    Location: Issaquah/WA

    Segler Junior Member

    macbeath, go ahead and use your Snipe rig. There are only two of us in the game right now, building, and we really can't afford to exclude anybody over some rule dispute. Just consider making your own sails at some point. In fact, that is what Dunnage has been doing, using used 420 sails. It saved him a lot of time but he is also working on making his own.

    Then, there is the challenge, competing with home made sails against commercial ones. And I, for one, find that appealing.
     
  2. sawmaster
    Joined: May 2010
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    Location: tyler,tx

    sawmaster Senior Member

    I see nothing wrong with Macbeath using his snipe rig (for now) as long as he also builds a homemade mast and sail keeping under the cost limit for "official" events.I have a force 5 dinghy with a 91 sq ft dacron sail and bendy aluminium mast that I would like to use to power an ultralight home built scow,but I know performance would suffer greatly with homemade equipment.I'm thinking of of keeping material costs down to 450 so I can spend 150 on a laser-style sail from intensity sails and maybe use alum conduit for the mast.But that rig would strictly be used to be a legal entry in sanctioned events.For all other recreational sailing I would use the force five rig.
     
  3. macbeath
    Joined: Jul 2015
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    macbeath Junior Member

    I think the original Laser rig was built with irrigation pipe.

    I'm thinking the people who have already put their boats in the water have senior status in interpreting the rules over those of us who are only contemplating a build.
     
  4. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Petros Senior Member

    lets just get some low cost boats out there and have some fun races. we can worry about the details of the rules as the fleet grows, and perhaps have official interpretations as the fleet gets larger.

    If there is actually any prize money involved eventually, than we will all have to toe the line on the rules.

    But for now, go a head and use salvaged sails, as long as the intent and spirit of the rules is not violated.
     
  5. macbeath
    Joined: Jul 2015
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    macbeath Junior Member

    The two boats already in the water are built in underlayment. How well does that hold up? When I researched it, the stuff was rated for interior use. I don't want to build a disposable boat, when I finally get to it, but the 4 mm Okume ply that I used on my last boat has gone up about 50% since Petros bought the stuff he used in his boat.
     
  6. Segler
    Joined: Apr 2015
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    Segler Junior Member

    macb., you worry too much.

    The product I used is "IronPly", $20 at the Home Depot. Pricey for underlayment but still only about a third of marine grade plywood. It is put together with exterior (!) glue and essentially void-free. It nominally has five plies but only three of structural significance; the outside plies are just films.

    The interesting part about that is the fact that the strong direction is across the panel, not along it. And that makes it more compliant to wrapping around curved shapes, like your hull.

    I went through seven sheets. On a 14 foot boat that means a lot of scrap left-over. I used that scrap to make all my blocks, the back face of my mast, rudder stock, all kinds of fittings and local re-inforcements as well as corner panels/head boards on my sails. And by now almost all of the scrap has found its way back on the boat.

    I think that, if you use something like that, bury the end-grain as much as possible and paint/varnish generously, you'll be fine.
     
  7. macbeath
    Joined: Jul 2015
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    macbeath Junior Member

    Thank you, that's very helpful. I've been playing with a number of different designs, and may or may not use the catboat design when I finally get my bookstore moved and have some time for this. I'm thinking, perhaps something with less speed potential and more stability would produce a more practical all-around boat that would be a greater pleasure to own. Something like the MerryMac I learned to sail in, but quicker.

    [​IMG]

    I would use a narrower bottom, so as to waste less plywood, which would reduce stability and allow the boat to be pushed by a smaller sail.

    [​IMG]

    I'd be sacrificing speed for practicality if I built this one.
     
  8. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Petros Senior Member

    the cheap underlayment plywood, about $13 a sheet at Home Depot, does not have waterproof glue. it is only good for templates or test builds, jigs, etc.

    Something with exterior grade glue is your best bet, 1/4" AC plywood is better though a bit heavy and you still have to watch for voids.

    That "ironwood" material sounds like a good bet if it has exterior grade glue. I should go find some and play around with a sheet or two of it.
     
  9. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
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    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I think that might be a good bet.

    Who wants to own a sailboat he never uses because its too big of a handful to sail? And it might even win some races, under certain conditions.

    We must keep in mind that the all up displacement for this puppy is likely to be in the 6-7 hundred pound range.

    I thought of a sampan like design with an enormous sail plan, with the hopes it could be made to plane down wind, at least, even when fully loaded.

    The sail would be made out of poly tarps and lumber, and would resemble a Chinese Lug, all 150 sf of it. It would be heavy, but easy to reef.

    The 'treasure chest' would be fitted athwartship, up against the transom.

    Since I'm dirt poor, I will never build a boat to fit this class, as it would have to live on a trailer and the trailer would have to live somewhere.
    So I'll have to just cheer from the sidelines.

    I have noticed everyone is considering only Bermudan rigs, mostly racing ones.

    I'm not so sure this is the best strategy, as the 'raid' style races are likely to be cross wind and down wind, not the BR's strong points.

    If I were in the game, I'd rather lose an around the cans race than a raid style one.

    Best of luck to all who end up in this.
     
  10. Richard Woods
    Joined: Jun 2006
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I recently bought 3mm okoume WBP plywood from Edensaw in Port Townsend for USD17 a sheet. IIRC the 4mm WBP okoume I bought was USD37 a sheet, but was 10ft x 5ft, so nearly twice the area of 8x4

    Richard Woods
     
  11. macbeath
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    macbeath Junior Member

    If you build one in 3 mm okume, you can cartop it.
     
  12. Segler
    Joined: Apr 2015
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    Segler Junior Member

    The 3mm Okoume they advertise on their web site is $57.80 a sheet. They don't show, or I couldn't find, WBP Okoume at $17. ???
     
  13. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Phone them up, they often have plywood not shown on their website. They had a huge stack of 3mm a couple of weeks ago, not just the odd sheet

    RW
     
  14. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Petros Senior Member

    Edensaw often gets low cost imported marine grade plywood at great prices. several years ago I bought about 20 sheets of 3mm at $15/sheet (4x8). it is supposedly same marine grade, but clearly the quality is not the same as the $57/sheet material. It is perfect for this kind of project, cheaper than Home Depo for crappy 3/8" CDX, and much lighter too. It never shows on their website, I would just check when I am in the area, it is not often in stock. they likely get it when they can, perhaps it is a "second" type of grade, or just from a low cost supplier. Quality is not the best for a bright finish, but certainly suitable for a low cost build, or even experimenting with since it is so inexpensive. I have not had any trouble with it at all, but I wish I bought more! It was stacked up on the roof of a passanger car and roped down through the windows (I had to crawl in the window to get in the car). worth the trouble, I think I only have three sheets left.

    So it is a matter of luck if they have it in stock.
     

  15. Dunnage
    Joined: Jun 2015
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    Location: Bellevue, WA

    Dunnage Junior Member

    Marine Plywood vs. other plywood

    QUOTE: "The marine plywood is rarely left unfinished. It very often has an epoxy coating, often with glass cloth as well. Okkume is a prime example of a widely used plywood wood which is not particularly resistant to rot and fungus." ( http://www.christinedemerchant.com/marine_plywood_grades.html )

    The above from one of many sources for information about grades of plywood. Most of those sources agree that the glues differ in how long they are rated to withstand boiling water... in hours of immersion. Any exterior plywood glue is likely to fall in the same range as marine grades (2-3 hours, up to perhaps 12 hours). "Interior" grades may have glue from the same chemical family as marine grades. The most important differences are in the quality of the plies and in the number and type of voids. Marine grades have strict standards that apply to ply quality. These are primarily strength issues, not water immersion issues. Voids lead to both types of negative effects, they allow osmotic water intrusion and subsequent rot; as well as being weak spots that are stress concentrators.

    Our dinghies are intended (at least mine is) for dry storage. It will rarely be in the water for even four continuous hours; essentially never for more than twelve hours; often only two hours. Also the hull is finished with a penetrating sealer and with either paint or varnish. The wood will never be saturated with moisture and the glue will not be 'boiled in water'. So, 5mm plywood has enough strength margin to make up for the occasional void or seam in the plies. I just have to store it dry and keep it painted.

    Okkume has to be kept dry and painted too... but not because of glue. The wood needs protection.
     
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