New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Petros, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. Yobarnacle
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    Yobarnacle Senior Member

    for KISS, the Optimist Pram
     
  2. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    He makes...

    *cleats
    *windlasses
    *all hardware
    *all rigging
    *internal systems, such as composting head

    etc...

    He's a steel boat guy and he was fairly well trashed on this forum, but he's actually a decent guy, if a bit eccentric. He carries a welder hooked up to his diesel on his boat and just welds up anything and everything. So... may not be applicable to this type of craft (too heavy), but he has many interesting ideas. He sells a book with plans for all of the hardware he has made/designed.

    I have no affiliation with the guy or his book sales, but he's been doing that kind of thing for at least 20-30 years now.

    He's the Origami steel boat guy.
     
  3. Yobarnacle
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    Yobarnacle Senior Member

  4. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    I found the web site with his origami steel yachts, but no pictures of his home made fixtures and fittings. I saw the book he sells on them, I just wanted to see what they look like.

    Actually I very much like the concept of his hull construction technique, could even be used with plywood on much smaller hulls. Being in a steel hull just seems to un-yacht to me, more like a freighter. But if you are going steel, his methods has much to offer.

    There is no end to the fancy and attractive rigging devices you can hang on a boat, most of them never even existed just a few generations ago, but now every one seems to think you need to buy them. With a little thought, usually you can find other ways to accomplish the same thing without the hardware, or with a simpler homemade solution. That is the kind of thing I hope this contest will promote.
     
  5. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    Yep, all legal, as long as any appendages fits within the box rule. It is assumed the sail would be on the center line to qualify the class rule. so boom or jib, plus body parts, can be outside the box during sailing, I guess that would include the mast and a pivoting keel too.

    The only condition is that the judges deem your invention as safe, though they are rather generous when it comes to questionable designs. On the current build/race contest they run on 4th of July, they find it most entertaining when up to half of the entrants sink during the race. A real crowd pleaser. Way more fun than watching a lot of identical boats go around markers.
     
  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ------------------------------
    Thats great, glad to hear it!
     
  7. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    But that is boring and predictable
     
  8. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    hey Doug,

    how is a canting mast helpful on a light dingy, where the crews body is used to counter the heeling moment. I would think that keeping the mast vertical would result in the most amount of trust from the sail (this is conventional wisdom for sailing a dingy). Does it lift the boat out of the water to reduce drag? If so it would increase the induced drag of the sail, and reduced its ability to generate thrust.
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =================
    Conceivably, it could be used to allow the boat to sail at an angle of heel upwind(if that worked best in the particular class) with the mast vertical.
    I don't know much about the Merlin class so I'm not sure how advantageous it is there. In the moth class in a study by Bill Beaver(see pdf below) the mast angled to weather is a net gain when the boat is sailed with Veal Heel.
    ==========
    I've been doodling with the idea of a single seat(see rough illustration below) like on an IC but instead of sliding it would be mounted higher off the water and pivot a bit athwartship to keep the lee side clear of the water. It wouldn't be as slick as the IC seat but would probably work well and could be made of ply. What do you think?

    click on image:
     

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  10. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    interesting idea, but I am not sure why it has to pivot. Wouldn't a beam with some dihedral (like wings) accomplish the same thing? Well I guess it would put the crew up a bit higher, but the lee side would clear the surface just as well. I tend not to like things that move or pivot if they do not have to, sooner or later it will give you trouble (typically at the most inopportune moment).

    That is exactly the kind of simple ideas that the class I am proposing would be ideal to test out with an inexpensive boat. Any other class that would allow such experimentation would also require some pretty costly little boats (both hull and sails/rigging) to know if it will have any advantage.

    Once we get the rules finalized here, you can take a copy to your local boat building school or foundation and see if you can get a chapter started there.
     
  11. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ====================
    Thanks! The way I envision it-at least now-is that the "seat" would be mounted on a tube and that tube would slide on another tube running fore and aft-say two or three feet long. That would allow the seat to move fore and aft- which it will probably need to do. This system would allow the freeboard to be, potentially, less than I have shown and the pivot range of the "seat" could be 100%(and very inexpensively) adjustable.
    =======
    As a suggestion, there might be room in this concept for a version specifically dedicated to older , physically restricted sailors with a rule establishing a class within the overall group, single or double handed where one crew person cannot move-and has to sit in the center of the boat. This would not be restricted to double handed boats either so singlehanded boats sailed with a crew who must sit more or less in the center might add a new fun dimension to the concept. Oh, and everybody would race together. And movable ballast could be used in some exciting ways.......
    =====
    Another suggestion: either increase the minimum cost to, say $800-1000 OR decrease the length(but not the beam?) to 12' and $600. Two person twelve footers that are powered up can be real fast though whether than kind of "powered up" can be achieved at low cost is a question. At any rate, I'm interested and may get involved after my tri is complete and sailing. I'm particularly interested in a single handed "sit in" version of the concept with movable ballast and/or DSS.
     
  12. kvsgkvng
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    kvsgkvng Senior Member

    I could imagine that in most cases a sailboat would not cruise at a heeling angle more than 20 degrees. In this case the loss of a sail section is about 6% Considering this mathematical fact, is it worth to make the boat mechanics more cumbersome and heavier?

    Also, heeling is a mechanism which allows a negative feedback -- meaning the stronger the wind the more boat is heeling thus reducing overturning. If the mast is kept vertical, then some sort of additional mechanism should be utilized to stabilize it. It translates in additional wetted area, or ballast or both. Is it worth for 6%~7%?
     

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  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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    Depends on the boat: For the Moth with Veal Heel(windward heel for bi-foilers-up to 30 degrees is effective), Banque Populaire(round the world record holding trimaran), and the America's Cup winner USA 17 the answer is yes.

    Pictures: 1) Banque Populaire-130' round the world record holding tri uses a canting mast system, 2) USA 17(look closely at picture) used a canting mast, 3) Moth with Veal Heel: a form of windward heel(up to 30 degrees) unique to bi-foilers where the CG of the hull and everything else moves to windward increasing RM up to 40%.
    click on image:
     

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  14. Steve Clark
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    Steve Clark Charged Particle

    $300 seems aggressive to me. Unless you are going to price the bill of materials by actual use than by unit purchased. For example roll of Tyvek is too much for a suit of sails, and costs too much of the budget.
    And of course having to buy everything means I can't use the bamboo I have been growing for masts and booms!
    SHC
     

  15. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    Rules should allow home-grown materials such as bamboo.
     
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