New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules

[Richard Woods]

I suspect its a play on "Down Under" but I haven't heard that either

RW

 

[gggGuest]

http://tasar.org/the-tasar/tips-advice/righting-the-tasar-after-a-capsize/

 

[Richard Woods]

I hadn't heard it called that before. Something like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZDXxcyqjjc

I have to say righting lines make a huge difference. I have given talks at SailOK in Oklahoma a couple of years and may be doing the same again this year. I like the open transom as it is easier to get onboard for someone fat and old like me

RW

 

[gggGuest]

Something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZDXxcyqjjc

No, not like that at all.

In that one person stayed at the bow, which doesn't really work when it gets really serious.

The crucial bit about the Australian Navy method is that with the rig to windward the crew ducks under the jib and grabs the shroud. They mustn't try to get in the boat, just wrap both arms round the shroud and hang on. Then as the boat flips up they both act as a sea anchor and give maximum resistance to flipping, and with arms wrapped round the shroud they won't get dislodged. The boat is then hove to and stabilised, and its easy for the other person to get in the boat and tidy up.

In that video they start up with the rig to windward, but instead of ducking under the jib and grabbing the shroud the crew stays at the bow, so there's nothing to stop the boat flipping oer again, and of course it does. Then there's loads of struggling to try and bring the rig up against the wind, with the other hand struggling to keep the bow round.
Mind you even worse is the standard taught scoop method, which is even less effective in high performance boats and serious breeze.

 

[SukiSolo]

Mind you even worse is the standard taught scoop method, which is even less effective in high performance boats and serious breeze.

I don't think it's very good in even moderate performance boats!...

I've had to go under with the board a few times in a singlehander, when she's swung the wrong way. Only really needed in a big sea or if there's a danger of not having anything to hold on to...

Only on the very fast windward flips, one must remember to let the tiller go and just HOLD on to that mainsheet. It takes a bit of mental persuasion but if the tiller is still held onto, it often causes a rudder/tiller system failure. Trouble is that in your head it is just such an instinctive part to keep hold of...

 

[Segler]

A most interesting and useful debate and very helpful for the business at hand, the Hardware Store Class.

It led me to conclude that, with respect to capsize and recovery, the BLUE HERON is in good shape.

All the built in floatation is along the centerline, making for inverted instability.

On her beam ends she is stable with the top six feet of mast in the water.

In a blow the hull could be driven over the rig but it will come right back up on the windward side.

I will have a line in the water on either side as standard procedure. With that I should be able to right the boat without having to climb on the centerboard.

I prefer dry recovery but should I ever decide in favor of the, Hadron-like, wet recovery, I could make that happen by cutting holes into the side decks, along the gunwales. Maybe four per side, two inches diameter. That should flood the hull in seconds and bring down the centerboard.

Lastly, I am going to avoid sailing in Australian Navy-like conditions. Too old for that.

 

[Richard Woods]

I just reread that Tasar report. Now it reads a bit like the scoop method but without scooping the crew up.

I am very surprised that it isn't possible to easily reright a Tasar in 20 knots of wind. (but I have never sailed one). But most dinghies you can reright in even 30 knots, as in that B14 video which is certainly way more than 20. I have certainly done so.

I agree re the scoop method in general. As with many things you teach/are taught, with experience and skill you do it differently

yes its too easy to break a tiller extension by holding on. However its better to stay with the boat even if you damage it by doing so

Clip your righting lines up under the gunwales, tie the front end to the shrouds. short strips of split plastic conduit works well as clips.

My "Down Under" comment was because, especially on a singlehander, you know the boat will blow over on top of you as your right it so you hold onto the daggerboard and roll under the boat as it comes up, thus ending up on the right side ready to right the boat again. Saves swimming round the stern

RW

 

[JRD]

The underwater roll method works well, by far the quickest way upright after canning it to windward. Just don't do it in light winds unless you can hold your breath for a long time...

 

[CT249]

It's nice to hear from some other people who feel the scoop method is a bit odd. I've never been able to work out the advice for the person on the centreboard to use the windward jibsheet; why try to right the boat against the capsizing moment of a sheeted-in and backed jib, and why make the boat head away onto a broad reach?

It's very, very rare to not be able to pull the Tasar back upright on a reach. From recollections of the very rare times we had to swim the boat head to wind (and I can only clearly recall one of them, when we already had a boat full of water after a bit of a gear failure) the wind strength was being recorded at over 25 knots at the start boat a few hundred metres away.

While I understand the concept of allowing the boat to sit low in the water, the advantage of the boats that float high is that you can have a full depth cockpit and a boat that comes up dry. I suppose it gets down to personal preference and factors like one's upper body strength and swimming ability, which would affect the ease of getting onto the centreboard. And of course since the probability of a capsize varies so much from crew to crew, surely there's no one "right" way to design a boat?

 

[SukiSolo]

yes its too easy to break a tiller extension by holding on. However its better to stay with the boat even if you damage it by doing so

RW

No problem, Richard, the mainsheet IS your connection to the boat, so you DO stay with it. Also has the advantage of pulling the boom down to the water when you pull on it IF it has remained up in the air - which is the most likely scenario...

For all that it still requires a mental 'shift' to some extent, when it happens partly because it is so quick. Worth the 'training' though not to break gear.

 

[gggGuest]

I've never been able to work out the advice for the person on the centreboard to use the windward jibsheet;

I believe the idea is to try and get the rig to blow downwind of the hull, since if you scoop the crew with the rig to windward the boat will as often as not blow straight over again with the crew still in the bottom of the boat and tangled up.

The thing about the Aus Navy method is that IME its works first time every time, so you don't have the extended energy sapping struggle visible in the B14 video.

 

[Richard Woods]

Remember the B14 capsized under spi which of course the Tasar doesn't have

Suki, but sometimes this happens https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOdiyvwldG4

RW

 

[SukiSolo]

Thanks Richard.

Fortunately I have avoided the dreaded pitchpole so far, but not by a lot... on some occassions. Certainly had water creaming over the foredck/bow, worse usually with a boat still containing water from prior flip!.
Certainly had 1 second flips to windward on a run, that have bent the mast slightly. Still looks like holding onto the sheet in that vid would have kept the helm in contact with the boat...I never said it was an easy mental thing to do, but once you can do it once, it's OK.

I'd only be wary if on a trapeze, or other situation where you are being catapulted towards something unwelcome and hard. Such as is possible on high performance craft. Nearly had a nasty once crewing a Tornado....but they do tend to stop once on their side...

I've managed to get an RS100 up and going complete with kite still flying before now, as long as you can bear away, they'll do it.

 

[gggGuest]

I will have a line in the water on either side as standard procedure.

A common way to rig these are to attach the lines to the underside of the gunwale at the centreboard, and have them long enough to go across an inverted boat to the other side. A long loop in the end isn't a bad idea.

Then attach shock cord to the end. In normal sailing the lines run under the gunwhale and to the transom, and the shock cord goes to a discreet hook on the stern at gunwhale height.These means they are out of the way and unobtrusive in normal sailing. To use pull the shockcord off the hook, and the line is free.

 

[CT249]

I'd only be wary if on a trapeze, or other situation where you are being catapulted towards something unwelcome and hard. Such as is possible on high performance craft. Nearly had a nasty once crewing a Tornado....

I've found that when you are being catapulted towards something unwelcome and hard on high performance craft (like Formula 16 types, Hurricane 5.9 copies etc) the best technique is to put something soft between you and the sharp object. When I'm cat sailing, the nearest soft object is my wife. For some reason she objects to being used as a cushion to stop my delicate skin from suffering impact on daggerboard cases and shrouds, but it works for me.

She can be a bit unreasonable about it. After all, she once won a bottle of Bolle or something at the Best Bruise comp at a national titles. I'm sure I was responsible, but did I get any credit? Nope. All I got was half a bottle of bubbly, and none of the glory. Such are the tears of a skipper's life.