New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Petros, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. Dunnage
    Joined: Jun 2015
    Posts: 26
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Bellevue, WA

    Dunnage Junior Member

    Flying Sails and Spinnakers

    Alan

    Since I have learned that there is an unambiguous definition and distinction between spinnakers and other headsails, flying or not, I am OK with the rules as written. I was not arguing against flying sails. It was just that I incorrectly thought the rule ambiguous and, therefore, ought to say 'flying headsails' rather than 'spinnakers'. Not relevant, but my personal preference is to have some type of effective downwind headsail. A spinnaker would be OK with me; but I have no desire to try to change the rules.

    So am I right that I could rig the dinghy to carry a downwind flying headsail so long as it is not a spinnaker?

    And, related question, if the flying headsail is tacked to a bowsprit, does the bowsprit length form part of the box rule for the hull? Or does it just fall within the rule on the fore / aft extent of the sail plan?

    I am thinking of a bow sprit that is a fixed-in-place spar, attached at the aft end to the mast at deck level and lashed down to the stem at the forward fixing. Would that be a 'legal' arrangement?
     
  2. Sailor Alan
    Joined: Mar 2014
    Posts: 299
    Likes: 15, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 85
    Location: Gig Harbor WA

    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    I think the point here is the sail area is UNRESTRICTED. this means ultimate sail effecenty is unnessary as one can always add a bit more area. This is ultimately self limiting, too much simple area being unmanageable. I like the rules as written they will encourage experimentation.
     
  3. Sailor Alan
    Joined: Mar 2014
    Posts: 299
    Likes: 15, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 85
    Location: Gig Harbor WA

    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    Apparently 'flying' sails are allowed, they just must have no breadth greater than the foot.

    Dunnage; I appreciate your suggestions about setting the downwind sail with a loose Luff, and I should try it too. I understand I could set it from a 'loose Luff' roller furling rig, much as some "code 0" sails are set today. However, my first attempt will be a fixed luff rolled around a 1/2" plastic conduite with the stay inside. As I have yet to purchase the rip stop nylon for this sail, I could change my mind as well. I have also been warned about the practicality of rolling a conduite around a fixed stay.

    I am assuming a 24" portable (removable) bowsprit, or probiscus, taking the overall boat to the 16' length limit.

    I think a dedicated downwind 'extra' will be key to making these boats work, but it must be very easy to handle, as the class assumes a 'family' crew.
     
  4. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 2,936
    Likes: 148, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1593
    Location: Arlington, WA-USA

    Petros Senior Member

    hull length is limited to 14 ft, overall length is 16 ft. So a bow sprit within the 16 ft limit is okay, as along as you included the rudder in that overall length. IOW, if the rudder does not extend past the transom (one that may be under hull, rather than be attached to the back) than you can have a 2 ft bow sprit. The intent here is to allow flexiblity, but keep overall size within reason.

    I have seen ten ft long bow sprits with massive head sails on them, way beyond the intent with this class.
     
  5. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 2,092
    Likes: 231, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 611
    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Hi Petros.

    I don't like the idea of including the rudder(s) in the over all Length measurement.

    This can encourage inboard rudders and even rudder trunks, to facilitate beaching, not what I would call a recipe for a simple boat.

    Just a thought.
     
  6. Sailor Alan
    Joined: Mar 2014
    Posts: 299
    Likes: 15, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 85
    Location: Gig Harbor WA

    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    Petros.

    Unfortunately, NO dinghy class extant includes the rudder in their length measurement, therefore we interpreted the rules as such, and we three all have hulls barely less than 14' between verticals. In fact Seigler's hull is finished, and is a work of art. Dunnage's hull is nearly finished, and mine is also far too far along to start reducing its length.

    Many dinghies not only do not include the rudder in their length, but allow the rudder pintles to be located well behind the transom proper, Moth, Sydney 18, to name two.

    Sharpil has it correct, beaching or launching with an under hull rudder is asking for trouble, and certainly does not allow for 'reefing' the rudder for down wind work.

    As to sails, we all have bowsprits, or 'probs' taking the overall rig length to 16', though they differ in their level of portability. We also have quite different sail plan arrangements, from each other. Washington state also requires unpowered craft to be less that 16' to be exempt from registration, though this might be a moot point.
     
  7. Richard Woods
    Joined: Jun 2006
    Posts: 2,209
    Likes: 171, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1244
    Location: Back full time in the UK

    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I agree, my Zest dinghy is also 14ft long, has a short bowsprit and a transom hung rudder

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  8. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 2,936
    Likes: 148, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1593
    Location: Arlington, WA-USA

    Petros Senior Member

    no worries. if that is how you want to count it, lets just say that is within the rules. What I wanted to avoid is to have the rudder hung out on a frame some 2 or 3 ft behind the transom like I have seen on some classes, these are rules cheaters. If transom mounted rudders prevents that than I am okay with that. These are rules that many helped developed, not just my invention (there are a few things I would have proffered to do differently, but I also appreciated the input from everyone to make the class popular).

    I have no investment in the rudder other than I want to keep it simple, if we all agree that transom mounted rudder solves that problem and we can go with that. I guess it would be better to deal with the rudder separately from the overall length issue anyway.

    Good to have input on the issue, thank you all for your feedback. One of the reasons to use this season as a kind of "trial run", to see what issues come up.
     
  9. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 2,092
    Likes: 231, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 611
    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Hi Petros.

    You're always a gentleman.

    Here's my attempt at definition of "Hull Length":

    "Hull Length" is the furthest extent of the Bow to the furthest extent of the Stern, including the Deck, Keel(s), Cutwater, Skeg(s), and furthest Rudder attachment point, but not the Rudder.
     
  10. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 2,936
    Likes: 148, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1593
    Location: Arlington, WA-USA

    Petros Senior Member

    I would prefer to use the "aftmost portion" of the transom as the measure point. This would also include a sloped or angled transom. Though if the keel extends past the transom we should word it to include that appendage (or do we want to included a rear keel extension in the 16 ft length?).
     
  11. Richard Woods
    Joined: Jun 2006
    Posts: 2,209
    Likes: 171, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1244
    Location: Back full time in the UK

    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    easier to say something like length is excluding rudder, but LE rudder must be within 4?in of the transom. The Moths, Cherubs, I14 etc have rudder gantries as there is no rule defining the size of the rudder fittings. Same with the "clipper bow" holding the fixed bowsprit

    RW
     
  12. Segler
    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 43
    Likes: 3, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 18
    Location: Issaquah/WA

    Segler Junior Member

    I second sharpii2's definition for LOA
     
  13. SukiSolo
    Joined: Dec 2012
    Posts: 1,270
    Likes: 25, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 271
    Location: Hampshire UK

    SukiSolo Senior Member

    A lot of classes ban bumpkins which would include any rudder gantry. So you then have to specifically allow bowsprit(s) to ensure they are legal. Richard's right too as some classes have a limit on how far aft the rudder fitting are 'packed out' from the transom. So when does a packer become a bumpkin?....;)
     
  14. gggGuest
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 840
    Likes: 29, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 76
    Location: UK

    gggGuest ...

    Actually no. Hanging the rudder off a gantry does nothing to increase waterline length in these classes (rules prohibit an effective extension of the hull surface), so in a class that seeks to control waterline length its not a rule cheat.

    The most significant advantage in classes where I've used it is that when the helmsman is hanging off the back corner of the boat trying to keep the bows out of the water the tiller/tiller extension are at a more reasonable angle for accurate steering. Trying to control the boat when the tiller extension is at an acute angle to the tiller is not optimal.

    But seeking to control the overall length of the boat as well as waterline length is not an unreasonable thing to do if you so desire. Perhaps you should aim for length without the tiller and rudder stock but including rudder fittings?

    A bumpkin is surely a spar that a sail is sheeted from, not part of the rudder gear. Most relevant with ketch rigs I should have thought.
     

  15. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 2,936
    Likes: 148, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1593
    Location: Arlington, WA-USA

    Petros Senior Member

    that seems like a flimsy reason to build that extended frame off the back of the trasom to hang the rudder. It was not a the water line length that I was thinking of, I know that makes no difference. It was that the further aft the rudder, the smaller it can be for the same control power, smaller rudder has lower drag. On a class where all the boats are nearly identical this would be an advantage.

    I want to avoid this complication with a simple rule, overall length seemed a good way to accomplish that. does requireing a transom hung rudder accomplish that? I can think of a lot of ways you could argue that point. And requiring a transom hung rudder might also precluded some creative way to have the rudder mounted further forward than the transom. like some kind of cassette mounted to the floor of the boat forward of the transom.

    The challenge of writing simple rules that can not be distorted or pushed to way outside the spirit of the rules. I really hate to have a specific length rule such as the rudder can not extend further aft from the transom than XX".
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.