New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Petros, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. Sailor Alan
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    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    I/We assume this sail is set from the bowsprit, but we are divided on just how taunt the luff should be.
     
  2. Segler
    Joined: Apr 2015
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    Segler Junior Member

    This is my posting debut on this thread.

    I am one of the "builders", inspired by Sailor Alan to participate in this effort. It did not take a lot of arm twisting. To an engineer, sailor and amateur wood worker, it's more like a dream come true. And the hardware store aspect only adds to the attraction.

    I have been at it since early March, two months into it. I am attaching a photo which shows the state of progress as of today. Be happy to show more building history if anyone is interested.

    Building materials are 5mm "underlayment" plywood and 3/4", #3 pine.

    I estimate I will be afloat and asail maybe by July. No promises. I hear there are some people who can do all this in three days at Port Townsend. So amazing.
     

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  3. Stephen Ditmore
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    Stephen Ditmore Senior Member

    www.mothboat.com
    The red boat is a thrown-together prototype.
    The blue one is my current thinking.
     

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  4. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    Nice work there Segler, welcome aboard! exactly the reason I wanted to start such a class. hope to see you and your build some time this summer.

    We are actually NOT doing it all in three days, the object is to just build the hull at the event. All of the other parts, rigging and bits and pieces will be done ahead of time. I also hope to do a rough build of mine well before the event to work out details (presuming I have enough time before that weekend), so all we have to do is cut out parts and assembly it at the event. The rules at the Pt. townend event allow pre-marking parts, prefinishing, and all stringers and long parts can be cut to profile or cross sectional shape. it will still be a challenge, but it means getting creative to keep the part count down, and keep it simple.
     
  5. Dunnage
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    Dunnage Junior Member

    Spinnaker Definition

    That I know of, there is no unique definition of a spinnaker. Everyone knows what one looks like; but from a rules standpoint it is just an instance of a flying headsail. Spinnakers, and all flying headsails, are not attached to a stay. Instead they are attached only at the head, clew and tack. To preclude the use of a spinnaker one should rule that headsails must be attached all along the luff to a headstay.

    By the way, this should be stated to specifically allow the non-flying headsail to have a 'wire luff' to which it is attached and which, in turn, is linked in as a segment of the forestay. (Not that the 'wire luff' is must actually be made of metal wire... cordage should be allowed. It is just necessary that it be linked into the stay and placed under enough tension that it does help to support the mast.) Or, of course, the non-flying headsail could be clipped, tied, hanked, or otherwise affixed to the headstay at intervals along the stay such that the luff is effectively continuously aligned to the stay.

    Flying headsail / non-flying headsail... that is the issue. Discuss instead if you wish to preclude the use of flying headsails; and if so, why.
     
  6. Richard Woods
    Joined: Jun 2006
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Spinnakers are usually defined as having a mid girth greater than 50% of the foot, or words to that effect

    RW
     
  7. Dunnage
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    Dunnage Junior Member

    Hull Number 2?

    How does one get a hull number for the class? Is it in order of the request? and how does one make a request? Or is it in order of completion and registration? Which, of course, begs the question of 'registration'.

    My dinghy is also under construction, though less than half as far along as Siegler's. A photo is attached. Note that the hull is shown with the bottom side up; which may be entirely appropriate considering all data from my extensive experience with dinghies ;-)
     

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  8. gggGuest
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    gggGuest ...

    From the Racing Rules of Sailing
    This is one of the rules in the RRS that may be changed by Class rules and rightly so. There's no way to define a hard and fast simple rule that accurately defines a spinnaker in every situation: the boundaries are inevitably fuzzy. I have raced with triangular wire luffed sails that were clearly spinnakers, and on the other hand things like the old quadrilateral jibs which could be built with a mid width greater than 75% are clearly jibs.
     
  9. TwoManyHulls
    Joined: Dec 2012
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    TwoManyHulls FlyingHulls

    I think the boats will be more interesting if you can set a downwind sail flying, but with the tack attached to the boat or a non-removable spar (bowsprit). My design is including this in accordance with the 75% rule to which gggGuest referred. This means a small gennaker can be used, but without introducing more hardware for a spinnaker pole, and would also rule out gunmounts.
     
  10. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I think you are making a poor distinction. See Attachment to see why.

    The boat sketched is the first boat I owned. I had to build it myself.

    As you can see, the jib is not attached to a head stay, and is not even attached to the boat at its tack. But this was the main driving sail of the boat, up wind and down. Your proposed rule would outlaw it.

    Since everyone seems to know a spinnaker looks like, I don't see any reason to define one.

    Making prohibitions too tightly defined can have the opposite effect intended.

    A long time ago, the length of a yacht was defined by the distance between the stem and the rudder post. Yachts started appearing with severely raked stems and stern posts, making the actual length of them often almost double what the measured length was.

    Much earlier on this thread, before Petros posted his rules, I suggested that "specialized down wind sails" (SDWS) be allowed. I then suggested that their area should be limited to some portion of the largest working sail of the boat. This was a bad idea and didn't get too far. It would have created a real advantage for cat rigged boats, just as spinnakers now create a considerable advantage for tall sloops.

    I should have suggested that SDWS should have their Area restricted half that of the working rig, plus the Area of any sail they replace.

    This would allow some more room for creativity without allowing enormous spinnakers.

    IMHO, the best way to prohibit them is to ban all SDWS's, so even a conventional jib, which is set primarily when the boat is sailing down wind, would be prohibited.
     

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  11. Segler
    Joined: Apr 2015
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    Segler Junior Member

    Spinnakers, Flying Sails, etc.

    To me, the obvious benefit to not allowing spinnakers is avoiding the complexity they create. There is the additional sail to start with and it requires a minimum of five additional lines, sometimes seven or eight. Not to mention the pole.

    On my build, which is progressing, I am planning on having just two sails, a main sail and a head sail. The head sail will be used upwind as well as downwind. Upwind it will be attached to the forestay but downwind it will be detached from it. So, technically, downwind, it will be a flying sail. But it is the same sail, no added complexity. Just trimmed for maximum benefit.

    That's not the whole story, but it addresses the main points.
     
  12. gggGuest
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    gggGuest ...

    A spinnaker is probably the least efficient sail per square foot of area. So if you want to discourage them have a moderate sail area limitation and no rational sailor will use one. But hasn't this all been said before?

    On sail area restricted classes the most common solution these days to make the jib more efficient and interesting downwind is to have what we in the UK call a dangly pole, which is a species of jib stick floating on a line on the front of the mast. Its used while reaching as well as on runs to control twist in the jib. Its reasonably cheap (one light spar (bamboo cane?), two bits of rope, one bit of shockcord and one cleat), reasonably uncomplicated and adds a great deal of efficiency so it seems the obvious way to go for a craft of this nature.
     
  13. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    Great to see more projects under construction.

    For now we are just having an informal meet up and fun sail, we have no official organization to register with, or get a number from. We are on the honor system to follow the rules.

    We could use this thread to "register" your boat once it floats.

    How about this? first boat built to these rules shown on the water in this thread gets number 0001. Second gets 0002, and so fourth.

    We will have to form an organization eventually, and than we will have a registry and perhaps a web site that will start listing organized events and race results. Perhaps next year. By the sound of it will will have a good start on a fleet by than.
     
  14. Sailor Alan
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    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    Per PETROS' rule set, rule C4 et-al, Spinikers are specifically banned. I an taking this to mean 'no flying sails'. I plan, per my earlier cartoon, to use a stem head jib for windward work, and a Kiwi style 'flattie' set on a roller, from a permanent bowsprit for downwind work. This seems to lie within the rules as written. I'm assuming a roller luff, though I guess it could also be set 'flying' ie seperated from the luff. Time alone will tell if it works or not.
     

  15. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    that is exactly correct as far as spinnakers, "we will know one when we see one". We do not want to complicate the boat with an additional flying sail, the definition as the width at the midpoint as no larger than 75 percent of the length of the foot seems like a good working definition.

    We have no rules committee yet, but when we eventually have one you will have to submit the design for approval before the race, or risk having it disqualified at the race. That will be of course once we have a race organization and officially sanctioned events. For now it is up to you to decide how much to push that rule, and possibly anger the other people that show up for a fun race. The intent is that these should be practial and fun boats to sail that perform fairly well, with some rather open rules to encourage creativity. I suppose something that is easy to control but on the edge of the stated rule, would be okay, but something very complicated and difficult to operate that gives a clear unfair advantage, might be considered out side both the spirit and the letter of the rules.

    Be creative with the rules with the spirit of the rules in mind, that is the point of the whole contest. I want to try out a new rig design myself on my own entry, if I can carve out enough time to build it before our first gathering.
     
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