New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules

Alan, I am thrilled by your commitment to the rule and spirit of the class and your crews fearlessness of 'thinking too much' (it's not like there is thought shortage). There are lots of engineers on these threads who will enjoy seeing their tools applied to this project.

Petro, could you review the crew weight rule for monohulls. It looks to me like it is a big problem if the intent was for the monohull to be a singlehand boat. The rule allows the mono to have two crew in the 500# races and I don't think a singlehander would stand a chance with a~350# pile in the middle of his boat. And how would that 350# be applied? I think the weight must be approximately the density of water, either water or beverage which does not fit in the specified space (I get 240#). In the other half (light crew) of the races I don't think the double crew has a chance. I think it would be much more manageable and desirable if the monohull was expressly single hand with the 'heavy' races roughly double the crew weight maybe with some 'heavy' races allowing two crew. The multihull class looks like 2 crew light with a 50% add or 3x crew weight heavy. The mono looks like 1 crew light and 3x crew heavy which will be a big problem for a single beach start raid.

I guess I should ask the participants what they think. How would you handle a single hand dingy that sometimes needs to carry #500? How desirable is the resulting boat? Would #350 be better? A fun solution in my mind would be to limit the 2nd crew to sitting in the middle of the boat -manning the cooler and the camera -maybe paddling when allowed.

About the sleeve and reefing, the Wharram design is similar to what I was thinking with a larger sock for the luff, but there is still complication and difficulty with the battens. I think that in practice the best result will be something like we are discussing on the 'soft wing' thread. Sort of a cross between a wing mast and a junk rig.

As Richard points out, race dingys go a long way without reefing ability. They manage it with the ability to make their sails very low drag (tight and flat) and feathering. To have this ability takes stiff high quality material and cut. I am also a bit concerned about dependence on a committee boat for safety.

The other unique feature of this class is the race configurations. It looks to me to be much more reaching and far less VMG tactics. I think this is the great opportunity to save money on the sail rig.

 

the idea with the crew plus cargo rule was too keep the boats practical for day sailing. the intend was that the same design would be used for both single and double handing, and some of the races would be held with a crew plus cargo weight of 500 lbs.

without a cargo capacity the only winners will be those that make slim tippy light hulls with a crew weight of 90 lbs. this is not a useful boat. by having some races run light, and some heavy, with the same boat, it will force the designer to consider "off design" performace and perhpas think of ways to make the same hull perform reasonably well in both modes. In my experiance with recreational dingys, there are times when you load it up for picknicks with friends, and other times you go out solo for some fun planing and surfing. That is the intent, make a boat that performs reasonably well in both conditions, rather than a "point" design.

 

as far as rule changes, I am still open to them. If you skim the long thread, most ideas were covered very well. I would like to get a few people building to these rules for a season or two, race each other several times, and than we can get together and discuss how we can improve the rules to give us the intent of getting a low cost good performing design, and eventually build a catalog of boat plans. The racing is just the means to that end, and to give us a reason to do it.

My long term hope is to revive an interest in home building low cost sail boats, rather than spend big bucks for something that some else designed and made for you. As you many have noticed, the small boat market as disappeared, they became too costly, so they priced themselves out of their target market. there is no reason building your own small boat needs to be costly, one recent 12 ft design cost over $4000 in materials alone.

 

I think you should divide the class into singlehanders and doublehanders, not try to make one boat do everything

Clearly a true singlehanded boat that can maybe carry 100lbs of stores, rather than say 300 as required now, will be lighter and smaller (less loads, less displacement required) so is cheaper and quicker to build.

What would a 300lb cargo really include if going out for a day sail? or even a weeks camp/sailing?

Since I last saw you (Petros) in early Sept I have lived out of a "carry-on bag". That is all my clothes, computer, camera etc. So under 50lbs weight has lasted me 4 months for "personal effects". Drinking water for 6 days is say 30lbs. Food say 20lbs. total 100. Add a back packer tent/cooker at 20lbs. That leaves 180lbs for beer, seems excessive to me. But then I don't drink

Furthermore, one of the main problems that many people face is that they (and me) have no one to sail with and a light weight boat that can easily be manhandled ashore is a plus, never mind out on the water. Just an aside, the rollers/trollies make it easy to do a LeMans start, but there's no mention of how to finish. I would assume the finish would be on the water, not on the trailer?

So my guess is most boats would be primarily singlehanders, maybe with a child crew option. And at 14ft that is feasible, by the time you get to 16ft most boats will be 2 handed.

If you have too high a "cargo" limit you are destroying the main objectives of the class - to get more people out in dinghies that are fun to sail, yet cheap and simple to build.

Richard Woods

 

I followed the development of the rule so I understand the intent of making a well rounded boat. If the rule stays the way it is it looks to me like it will be alternately sailed single and double handed since fixed ballast can't compete with moving. As a practical matter I think the boats should have provision to top off with a secure variable water ballast.

I would still like to hear from the others about how to handle the wide variation in displacement and how desirable the resulting boat will be.

 

Weight ashore can be a real killer.

I grew up with all boats on trailers and easy access to great dinghy boat ramps.

Life was good.

This is not universal by any means and can really limit someone that is thinking about involvement in low cost small boat sailing.

Currently my options are mostly "hand carry to shore" with parking issues.

 

Working sailboats were required to meet such criteria, and even more, for centuries. And they were often raced on Sundays.

The working sharpies and flatiron skiffs, for instance, had highly tucked up sterns.

Under a light load, the transom rode high above the waterline.

A boat does not necessarily have to be heavy and hard to beach, to be able to carry a heavy load.

In the case of this particular class, three fifths of this load is generally expected to be crew, so when the boat is beached it will only have about two hundred pounds of payload on board.

Such, I think adds an interesting wrinkle to small sailboat racing, which seems to be defining itself out of existence with its emphasis on high speed performance only.

You can race a pair motor homes but you cant camp in a pair of sports cars.

 

Phil Bolger said it best -a boats use is inversely proportional to the difficulty or time to get on the water. I have 7 boats at my home and it's 150 yards to the water. The boat that gets the most use by far is a kayak under 27lbs. It's not fastest, or most comfortable, or best looking by a long shot, but I can carry it to the water without even changing hands halfway.

I would also second Richards comment about single handing ability. The concurrence of free time for even two people is just too small these days. That said I think that it is highly desirable for a boat of this size to be able to carry two crew effectively. I love my laser but I think it is pathetic how poorly it carries two. There was a guy on another thread that had a beautiful rowing wherry that he would show (and win) sometimes all shined up with a forward facing lounge seat in the stern and a big picnic basket. The rowing seat was immovable and clearly trimmed for single handing. I think he mentioned his wife had not been in the boat more than twice, but I am sure that empty seat has more to do with his having that fine boat and the time to use it than any other feature.

Richard, is there any innovation that you can think of that would make a boat a good light single-hander AND a good boat loaded to #500? Narrow the transom so it drags less when it's sunk? Go for a scow so the draft does not move so much and there is lots of lifting area to get on plane?

Hmmm your a sailor... who doesn't drink -So did they run you out of England for that?

 

Well you could use something like my Strike 15 trimaran. Sailed singlehanded both outriggers can be out of the water. Then when loaded they will be in the water and it would be a very stable platform

RW

 

Though we have not had the critical design review yet, i can tell you a few things that seem to be important.

I must respectfully disagree with Richard in needing two classes. I would also like to suggest we keep the ‘rules’ much as they are now, i.e. no increase from 5’ beam.

i definitely respect the original intention of these ‘rules’ in promoting through racing a sort of general purpose dingy, capable of sailing, rowing, paddling, beach landing, and carrying a picnic. I believe Richard is promoting (suggesting) dinghies that owe far more to modern racing dinghies, than the far older design general purpose dinghies that sailed.

To this end, we are discussing a 14’ long, 5’ wide plywood skiff with two lug sails (ketch, schooner?) to carry two people and something to make up a 500lb payload. We are assuming beaching gear, rig, paddles etc are not included in this 500lb. Our crew weighs about 200lb each, and we assume 100lb liquid ~10 Gal, in the cooler/box. We are assuming both people actively sailing, but at nearly 70 years each, not much serious hiking out.

In fair weather, one crew might sail this double rig, but certainly with one mast and rig moved to the center, one person could easily sail this. This is similar to Chesapeake bay oyster dredging skiff practice. Our design of ‘lug’ rig, a high peaked version, can be reefed very quickly, but if you are expecting bad weather, the single rig is best.

We are considering a single stick version, but now we need to decide between a free standing or stayed rig. This rig would be far less portable, and longer to rig, hence less fun for a quick sail after dinner in the evening. I personally refuse to paddle anything after 5pm, only sail.

Equally, with only one person aboard and, in our case, 300lb ‘ballast’, the dingy could be sailed like a modern Etchells, from inside the boat. Yes, the ‘ballast’ would be relatively high compared to an Etchells, being above the hull bottom proper, but all dinghies would be similarly burdened.

We are NOT expecting Moth or Cherub like performance, but assume all boats would be similarly burdened and rigged. In fact, we are planing to eschew wide headed sails as being unnessaraly profligate of modern materials. This is kind of weird as we number in our crew world experts in carbon structure, and some advanced aero types.

We definitely think lighter is better, and hope to make a boat that one person can remove from a roof rack, and wheel on plastic tires to the ‘beach’. In our case, a grassy bank about 12” high, though there are plenty of launching ramps around. There are roof rack boat assist techniques that can help. we have a 100yd walk from the car park to the bank. We are assuming we can stagger to the ‘beach’ with this boat, especially if we use retractable launching wheels, either transom mounted, or dagger board case mounted.

Though glass fiber flag poles are a candidate, we are also considering hollow 1/8” plywood masts. These are similar in structure to our current spinnaker and whisker poles.

 

No chance of getting these boats to plane, even in single handed guise. Base drag, ie immersed transom will be the issue. Think of Richard's trimaran, perhaps double ended, with the floats removed, but the beams still there. I can imagine a 14' hull of 2' beam and the transom bottom flush at heavy weight. Plastic pipe (6" diameter) about 18" from each gunwale for hiking.

 

The OP wants to have a racing class, not a cheap general purpose day cruising dinghy. How many traditional style non planing boats do you see racing these days?

The one design Lymington Scow comes to mind, but few others

when I built my first Int Moth I did it very cheaply from plywood. yet it was a competitive boat. You cannot do that these days. And I thought that was the intent of the class, to go back to the 60-70's style of dinghy building and see if there were new design ideas that would allow both performance and low cost

RW

 

Alan, you plan a very sensible boat and have two big crew which is favored by the rule, but it looks to me like at least a 150# boat and 180# from a more novice builder. That will be very difficult to car top and get to the water -prohibitively so for one. I also wonder about if this boat is a 'joy to sail'. There is a positive design spiral of light weight that a 1X 3X crew weight prohibits and it defeats the spirit of a simple well rounded cheap boat if it requires complicated expensive (relatively) gear to launch.

About my question of innovative solutions this rule might drive:
-my first thought was what you said -narrow the transom, more of a dory. I also wonder if there is a medium -a planing hull that just trims bow down in the heavy races. And the third thought is a morphing hull -dory or regular canoe shape heavy, International Canoe style planing hull light with wings that fold down (innovative, but not 'well rounded').

Richard, your strike 15 would be excellent for the multihull class; 2 crew always, ~350# light and 500# heavy, $1000 limit, 16ft length. As you can see the multihull has it 'easy' in that off the shelf designs fit and are fast. Their big challenge is building cheaply.

Now think about race days. the multis are going to be much faster than the monos. You can race anything as Sharpi and Alan point out -but is it fun? To Richard's point slow monos are not popular -and they don't have the burden of multihulls zipping by to emphasize the point. And half the monos crew sits on the shore for half the races making it that much harder to line up crew.

The last thought I feel the need to mention is safety -righting and recovery of boats with the heavy load in the middle. If the weight is more than say 40# I think it should be able to quick release and have a density not greater than say 90% of water so it floats. That way the boat could be righted and bailed, not too full of water.

Part of the attraction of a development class is that you can adapt to the crew and conditions. This development class addresses the big drawback -escalating cost. This class has the structure to be applied to different venues with minor modification and I think the participants only need to agree at the start. I am just an observer motivated to see it succeed. You three are likely the most talented designers this class will see even if it is a big success. Does the rule encourage good design -does the 'best' boat win? Or more to the point does the rule encourage boats that are fun to build and sail? I have a preference for a fast light 1X 2X singlehand racer. I guess I will have to start a local fleet to prove it.

 

Personally I'd like to see the best sailor win. The best designs can compete in a design competition, although how that is judged is challenging!

You could build a 16ft trimaran with 7 sheets of 4mm ply, at USD31 a sheet of good quality okoume plywood from Edensaw, that's only USD200 plus epoxy and rig

RW

 

That's a very similar concept to my Zest design. But pipes are heavy and dig into the thighs and don't really offer much buoyancy gain compared to hollow wings.

http://sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/designs/1-beach-cats-and-dinghies-/436-zest

This is what I wrote on the "Yard Class" thread

"A much more interesting design/build/race challenge would be to say. Everyone use a standard Laser rig, board, rudder (which cost peanuts used). No other rules. Levels the playing field somewhat, and keeps costs way down yet still allows lots of meaningful design challenges"

Richard Woods