New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules

The Zest is designed as a singlehander, I do have a 2 man 14ft boat, Spectrum, lurking at the back of my screen but that won't make it to the front for a while and it is a cruising dinghy, not a race boat

Have you looked at the hull shapes of the last low rider Moths (Axemen etc) they are basically hard chine hulls. The first boat I ever built was a Mistral, simple to build, not so simple to sail compared to my later Moths. And I'm sure you've seen the latest RS's the Aero and RS100, which have similar hull/decks to yours

I would be using second hand spars on the Zest, as I normally try to do with all my own boats. A 420 mainsail would work, you can buy a new "square top" one for USD180 here

http://www.intensitysails.com/pohemasafor4.html

I thought the Boeing store had shut?

If you use plain tubes for a mast how do you make a sail track? (RV awning?) People really don't like a sleeved sail that cannot be lowered. But I might try a sleeved luff fully battened sail again on a Zest, as I did on my Moths back in the early 1970's

Good to see this thread has revitalsed, wheres Petros when you need him?

Richard Woods

 

Richard,

I found that aluminum "awning rail" looks like it could be made into a sail track by cutting off the "flange" portion. Cost around $60 for a 20' chunk.

I have thought about making a hollow wood mast and a sail track made from a section of poly pipe. Cutting slot in poly pipe should be pretty easy. I have a couple of ideas for attachment such as lashing and/or small brass screws.

At a local box store, I grabbed a 20' piece of 160 psi poly to experiment with since it was only $6.95. When I got home I found it was 5/8 OD and 0.475" ID consistent with "Apollo PEX pipe".

The poly pipe seems more in line with the "low cost hardware store" theme than the awning track.

Have you ever heard of anything similar to this approach?

 

Is anyone having a ago in Australia? Love this concept, would a good way to get into sailing

 

I had an early aluminium mast with glued on plastic tube as sailtrack back in the 70s.

Awning track comes in plastic as well as aluminium, and is used on some commercial carbon masts.

 

I've had some bad experiences with a synthetic track material glued to carbon for the mainsail track. Me and many others actually. All on minis. Glue didn't hold by itself, and we ended up adding a lot of carbon to encase the track so that it could handle the leech tension of a square top mainsail. As many of you know the top batten on a square top is essentially a gaff with a horizontal span to the head, and it pulls the head of the mainsail away from the mast as you increase leech tension. Apparently hard enough to pull the track away from the mast. I have not used the Aluminum version, but saw several minis that did and without problems. The aluminum track has a much bigger bonding surface than the plastic ones we used, and is stiffer, so all of that is a plus. It will require a D section mast to provide the proper foot print for the bonding surface.

 

hi all,

the Center for wooden boats Quick and Daring contest requires at least one leg be muscle powered, and there is penalty for long build times. this would be a very different design than what is implied in these rules.

Richard, I have been reconsidering the width rule: if we want them to sail well than having more beam would be desirable. I was thinking rather than 5 ft beam, go out to 7 ft (half the 14 ft length). It would not make the boat any more or less difficult to transport, and if light enough would still be suitable for car topping. The idea was to make them easy to transport, but adding more beam would make them better sailing boats, with only a minor effect on transportation and storage.

The Edansaw contest is more suited for this kind of build, so that is what we are planning for next year. A kind of personal contest between Richard and I within the Edensaw contest. And anyone else that wants to build to these rules are very welcome to join us. they allow up to two and a half days for the build, but they allow prefinishing and cutting stringers and trim into constant sections. Plus they are only considering the hull, so sails, rigging, rudders, dagger boards, etc can presumably made and finished a head of time.

Since the rules and judging criteria are ambiguous at best in the Edansaw contest, we thought we would use these rules for a test of this type of build. Anyone is free to enter and compete, just volenarily stay withing the rules to make it a fair and interest test of the concept.

The center for wooden boats has a large regatta in September, the director had offered to create a class for us if we can get three or more boats built to these rules. Their only requirement is the hull be made primarily of wood, which is a suitable material since it is less costly than other construction materials. So if we can get three boats over in Port Townsend built, we can also race them the following week in the wooden boat regatta in Seattle. That would be a good start for our new class.

 

Great, unless we end up doing something else, I'm in

Also great you changed the beam limit. My Tryst trimaran is 7ft wide yet fits in the back of our pickup as the beams are demountable. Maybe keep the 5ft rule but apply it only to the hull itself.

I agree with the track coming off problem. Back in the Needlespar days in the Moths, we had to use a self tapper at top and bottom of the track as the bend could/did sheer the poprivets

I have also had the luff track open up at the head due to the high loads from a square topped mainsail. So I don't think plastic is a good idea, nor really is a soft aluminium RV awning track on a well loaded sail

For an unstayed sleeved sail in a "hardware" class why not try a flagpole, 3 piece, aluminium about USD100

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

 

So if Sailor Alan is in that makes a very talented 3 boat start to the fleet in WA, all in the single hand single hull class. The Center for wooden boats will surely add visibility. If the build could attract a few more boats to the fleet events would follow more naturally.

A $100 two piece aluminum tube mast with a sleeve sail could be a solid performer with a laser sail $135. The lower tube could be less beefy if it was supported higher up like on a moth.

http://www.intensitysails.com/prsaforla.html

The one thing this leaves me wanting is reefing ability. Is it possible to make a reefing sleeve sail? Maybe a roller furling headsail?

I am wondering if all the "hardware store" rules are being considered -in particular the 'cooler carrying' capabilities and the human propulsion in some events. These are major deviations from the standard one design racers and a big part of what would make this class more interesting and well rounded.

 

probably time for a review of the "rules". I will be using a second hand mast, and possible a used sail/foils. I will have receipts to show the price I paid as I know I cannot make my own for the price of a used one. Same as a used Harken block can be cheaper than a HD galvanised one

You can reef a sleeved sail by wrapping it round the mast. Not underway though, but check out the various Escape dinghies by Hoyt. Having said that, a racing dinghy should not need reefing until winds are over 25 knots (even I will sail in those winds) Good sailors maybe up to 30.

You may/will capsize but that should be no big deal either, it certainly is not with a "real" dinghy. If a "hardware" class is not as seaworthy then it all needs a rethink. I certainly would not design/build and more important, sail, a dinghy that I could not race at sea safely in 25 knots of wind

Richard Woods

 

The last listing of the proposed rule is in post #497

Just re-scanning the document I had forgotten a few points
-half races have a minimum crew+cargo of 500# and cargo is accessible -optimally alcoholic and refreshing. I am wondering if this is an oversight as it is the same for the double-handed multihull. 500# is two crew and a big cooler. 500# is one crew and a commercial refrigeration unit. 300# seems more appropriate for a single and cargo.
-Courses -triangle, rectangle, bowtie, raid, no mention of windward leeward
-$600 budget for the monohull

 

That's why I said time for a rule rethink. And it is the helm who wears the bowtie

I don't want to HAVE to buy cheap plywood to keep within budget. I want a boat that will last at least 10 years left outside (my 14ft Stealth is now 17 years old and has never been in a shed since it was finished). Painted with house paint. Having said that Edensaw was selling good quality 4mm plywood for USD31 a sheet last year and I only need 5 sheets for a Zest

RW

 

That fits the bill. There is some room for interpretation and sealants and paint are not counted -nor is maintenance.

The sail and rig are challenging using new material rather than cheap leftovers from production boats as we tend to do.

A development class for under $600 is going to require some major innovations.

 

The Boeing Store moved "on line" and is called 'investment recovery' we still buy cargo liner tape, and 1000mph tape when we can.

The mast was made using 8-10' lengths of thin walled aluminum tube, slid inside each other with epoxy glue. It was double wall up to the hounds, and really keen types slit the upper section to taper it. The sail track was typically a 1/2" aluminium tube cut lengthwise with a table saw, and pop riveted onto the back of the mast. Kids with money sometimes used RV awning track as sail track, others used sail track and sail sliders. If we had time, we dribbled epoxy and filler into the “V” between the mast and track as a fillet. Given todays rules, i might do exactly this, and ‘fill’ the ‘fillet’ to make a pear shaped mast. i could add a pultruded carbon rod (kite or tent blank) in this ‘fillet’ if i thought it was needed.

Interesting that the “Mistral’ was hard to sail, i must bear that in mind.

P Flados, ‘pop’ or cherry rivets work quite well in plywood, especially where the rivet can ‘flair’ on the far side of the plywood.

Our Cherub sails were shackled in the hoisted position, and the jib was part of the forestay, no reefing or lowering possible once launched. We sailed in the WARM Pacific directly, 15-20kt wind, 15’ rollers with 2’ wind waves on them. Even having capsized a couple of times it was possible to win. Capsize recovery usually involved rolling the boat upright with the wind abaft the beam, and the skipper holding the tiller straight whilst pulling the mainsheet as he lay in the (open) stern. The boat accelerated away, water poring from the cockpit, and the crew had to hang on if he didn't want to be left behind.

If the weather got too overpowering, or more likely we were exhausted, we simply capsized and waited for the committee boat. In this case we usually swam to the masthead and unshackled the mainsail. If a lightning storm hit, we rolled the boat inverted, and sheltered under the upturned hull.

Upon the advice of my new “Team” i have reconsidered the whole purpose of this boat. It has been pointed out that human power (paddles) will be used if the wind dies, and carrying the complete vessel from the high tide mark and launching it are requirements, as are including a days rations or supplies, and a ‘cooler’ or equivalent box. All these ‘rules’ conspire against a pure performance dingy, and bias one toward something like the Goat Island skiff, or one of Atkins dinghies.

I am currently recasting the design, and will share some thoughts as it progresses. As the crew (all 6 including the ‘bench’) i race with (35’ -50‘s era yawl) nearly every weekend are all aerospace Alumni, they are encouraging me to do a critical design review including pareado and spider charts comparing performance amongst the various alternates.

To this end i am preparing preliminary proposals of several different concepts, complete with estimated performance data. Fiberglass flag poles, sectioned and one piece, have been suggested as masts, and i am including single mast and double mast variants too.

Im not complaining about the rules, but i think the launching, and cooler load carrying might dominate the design. The critical design review will shed some light.

Note; i have no issues with cheap plywood, and will enjoy trying to MAKE nearly everything (including mast and sails) rather than buy second hand. After all we are trying to promote a class here, not rely on others cast offs for it. I'm taking the $600 very seriously, and will try to make it much cheaper if i can.

Another note; if you make the beam 7’ will it look exactly like a Merlin Rocket? Please do not specify hull beam, merely beam, a ‘box’ rule.

 

Here is an allegedly reef-able sleave sail, including a high cut 'square' top.

http://wharram.com/site/how-we-design/wharramwingsail

i imaging something like this could be made from poly Tarp, the stronger version anyway.

 

Interesting stuff.

The sleeved mainsail Moth I sailed was fitted on a Chelsea Morning in 1974/75. I went to every UK open and the Europeans, yet only capsized it once the whole year. Yes, the mainsail could not be lowered once hoisted as it was shackled to the masthead. Obviously many racing dinghies don't use halyards (not just the Laser) like the Cherub, as you say. I see no problem with that.

I used a short gaff mainsail on my 35ft cruising catamaran that was my final year design project in 1977. But after drawing it in detail I realised how heavy it all was compared to even a single full length batten (Merlin Rocket style). For a start you have a heavier, bigger section mast as it can only be stayed at the head. The sleeve makes things worse - ever tried to take off a wet T shirt? So when I built my first boat (a 30ft version of my college project) I had a square top mainsail (which I made myself). That boat was launched in 1980

The very first Needlespar masts were made as you describe. Very heavy though. David Hunt, boss at Needlespar was at my college

I don't think anyone would make a Merlin style dinghy unless hollow topsides and rise of floor measurements were regulated. Wings work better, are simple and can easily be removed for transport or storage

Richard Woods