New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Petros, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,380
    Likes: 156, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    Here's an idea to promote the idea of developing cheap designs, while facing the fact that sailors in this class may be spread all over the world.

    Why not have an ongoing ranking list on the class website/FB page showing the comparative performance of "Hardware 16s" against Lasers? The ranking could be in order of comparative performance against competitive Lasers, as a % of the Laser's speed.

    In order to avoid people playing silly buggers, the rules could specify that the Laser sailor/s used as a yardstick had to be in the top "X"% (10%???)of the Laser class in their Laser district, and the races against them would have to be scheduled at least 10 days prior and be around whatever standard course (ie WW/LW, triangle, trapezoid etc) the regatta was to use. That would stop anyone waiting for perfect conditions and a reaching race, or playing the rules in some other way (like putting their cousin Fred, who has never sailed, on a Laser and telling them to sail as slowly as they could). It could also be specified that the "Hardware 16" had to start within at least X minutes (10m?) of the Lasers to ensure that conditions were reasonably similar, and that at least 3 (?) races had to be used for the average.

    These rules are far from perfect and holes could easily be found, but perhaps the idea could give those who wanted to use others' experiences as a guide to their own development a more accurate idea of performance than just going by personal accounts or races that are selected for their ability to put a design in a good light. We've seen many instances here on BDF of people who pick just a couple of results that back up their position and ignore those that don't. One race could be dropped per regatta, as usual.

    A sailor would just have to provide a few facts, including a link to the results and SIs and to the Laser sailors' results. A bit of Googling gives the latter. Perhaps they could also be asked to give wind strength and wave information as well.

    It would be interesting for designers to know, for example, that Joe Blow's modified GIS finished 3.5% quicker than the NSW Laser champ in the four-race Anzac Day regatta in 10-12 knots and chop. That would give someone whose Hardware 16 got beaten by 25% by the guy who was 10th in the UK Laser champs at the Bloody Mary regatta in those conditions food for thought. It could also help create Portsmouth ratings.

    Maybe other classes could be used as the yardstick - if a Hardware 16 raced against the Cali C420 champs then Portsmouth corrections could be used to equate performance. In fact, maybe the whole system could centre around using a race results programme to calc yardsticks?

    As I said, it's NOT a perfect system but just one that could provide some fun and interest. The alternative for competition among widely-spread sailors could be GPS racing a la windsurfers, but that favours boats that only perform in one condition and sailors who get good winds.
     
  2. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 2,936
    Likes: 148, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1593
    Location: Arlington, WA-USA

    Petros Senior Member

    Final rules for 2013 season

    here are the final rules: feel free to share them with your local clubs or boat building organizations to get your own local chapter started. Eventually I would hope to have national events with entrants from all over the country.

    Thank you all for your extensive time, efforts and ideas and input on this thread, I think it made them better.

    Note: Please, there will be no more changes on these rules for this year, any proposed changes will be only considered for 2014. thank you.

    ==============================================

    Challenge 600 class Rules


    I. Challenge 600 class (aka “hardware store class”) basic definition: a developmental class of practical, good performing sails boats designed to be built with low cost materials in a typical home workshop. The boats can be designed for one or two crew, to perform in a variety of practical sailing events. The class is to encourage creative and innovative ideas for low cost practical sailboats.
    II. All equipment and racing rules not specifically stated will be generally according to the current Racing Rules for Sailing by the International Sailing Federation. The Definitions and figures from the rules shall be used to interpret these rules as applicable. Rules will be generally observed but not necessarily strictly enforced. http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...[8222].pdf

    III Box rule:
    A. Monohull. (hollows or concavity in hull not to exceed 1”, below gunwale, aft of mid point)
    1. Max hull length 14' from bow to transom, max rigged overall length 16’
    2. Max beam 5' (including all appendages, hiking benches, etc)
    3. Max height measured from lowest point of any sail, to highest point any part of sails or rigging: 20'. Note: there is no overall height limit, but mast or other rigging is not to extent more than 20 ft above the lowest point of any portion of the sail.
    B. Multihull.
    1. Max length 18' (including all appendages).
    2. Max height from low point of hull to highest point of rigging or sails: 24’
    3. No beam limit but hull must be able to be reconfigured/dismantled to 8' towing width.

    C. Rigging/Configuration
    1. Number, material or configuration of sails or rigging is unrestricted (except as below)
    2. Sails and rigging must stay at or below height limit and within the max length/width rule when centered or aligned in the fore and aft direction for measurement. Sails, and rigging (booms or jibs, yards, etc.) can go outside the box rule when underway (not centered).
    3. The righting moment of the crew weight shall only be transferred to the sail through the hull, shroud, or sheet or similar, in which case it shall be through blocks attached to the hull (i.e. no windsurfer/sailboard configurations)
    4. No spinnaker, or trapeze allowed, but foot straps and/or bars or bench for hiking out are okay (as long as all appendages are within max size limits). Trapeze allowed for multi-hulls only.

    IV Materials/Equipment
    A. Wood or wood/pulp based materiel must be incorporated into the structure of the hull (but the building method does not have to use wood exclusively-other materials are allowed).
    B. Construction method is wide open, but should be suitable for building in a home shop without extensive tooling or costly machine tools (plywood forms or strong back acceptable, making parts in a numerically controlled mill is not).
    C. Approx half of races will require boats to accommodate a minimum crew-plus-cargo weight of 500 lbs, and have room for a typical 36 quart size cooler to be fixed in place yet accessible on the hull during the race. A box of approximately 24" x 14" x 20" tall may be built into the hull as an option. Any ballast necessary to reach the 500 lb crew-plus-cargo weight is to be carried in the cargo box. Races can be done single or double handed.


    D. Cost Basis
    1. All the materials, fasteners and adhesives purchased for use in the construction of the complete boat, sails and rigging is limited to $600 monohull class, $1000 multihull class (not counting sales tax and shipping costs).
    2. The cost basis will be for normal retail cost available to anyone, purchased new in quantities enough for one boat, at retail prices from any mail order or national supplier, or actual sales receipts from such suppliers in quantities for one boat. Wholesale suppliers or bulk purchase materials may be used but the bulk price is not counted as the cost basis, but the normal small quantity retail price will be cost basis.
    3. The nominal purchase unit of materials shall be used: the cost of full sheets of plywood, fabrics or lines and rigging sold by the running yard or by the foot, counted in whole yard or foot increments. Screws, fittings or fasteners are counted by the box, pound, or each.
    4. The cost of paint, sealant or preservatives will not count toward the materials cost, any type of one-part paint or sealant is allowed. (Bright colors and attractive paint schemes are encouraged) The cost of the thread incidental to any sewing will also not be counted towards material cost.
    5. The entrant must supply documentation of value of materials. All entrants must submit copies of receipts or print out from a national retailer for the cost basis and a list of materials used when a boat is registered for the season.
    6. The cost of maintenance or repairs is not counted toward materials cost, nor the cost of replacing whole assemblies of items replaced (if a sail or rudder is replaced with one of a new design, but the cost of the materials is the same, than it will not affect the materials costs), experimentation is encouraged.
    7. If the replacement component costs more than that being replaced, than the
    difference will count toward the class limit (in IV.D.1.).
    8. Major repairs that significantly affect the cost of materials will require a judge to approve, with the intent that no advantage would be gained.

    V. Design/Plans

    A. At the end of each season, first, second and third placed overall winner must supply suitable plans, or allow design plans to be drawn from their boat, and published for next season and made available to anyone for a reasonable fee (Propose $60).

    B. Sales of the plans must be done through the race organization. The proceeds from the sale of the plans are to be split between the race organization and the boat designer. Or one third race organization, two thirds designer if suitable publish-ready plans are supplied by the designer.


    VI. Racing Events
    A. There shall be three or four race day events for each season (series), with at least one of them an all day “raid” type event.

    C. There must be at least three entrants for each class to score season points, but if less than three an entrant may run with other classes without scoring.

    D. Each short race day event shall consist of two or three (or more) races arrange, but not limited to, the following:
    1. Triangle coarse around 3 markers (with option of circling the "long way" around one, two or three of the markers).
    2. A rectangular coarse with a "bow tie" option around 4 coarse markers.
    3. A straight line coarse out and back around one marker. Each marker must be at least 660 ft (1/8 mile) nominally apart or distance from the starting line, longer preferred.
    4. At least one of the races on each race day shall be required to have crew and cargo equal 500 lbs, with cargo box carried on each vessel, for about half of all races. Crews may be either single hand or two crew.

    E. Scoring for the short race day events toward season total shall be as follows:
    1. The first place shall be awarded 100 points. Second place will receive 60 points. Third place shall receive 40 points. Fourth place shall receive 20 points. Each place after 4th that finishes shall receive10 points.
    2. DNF receives zero points for that race

    F. There shall be at least one Raid type event each season.
    1. It shall last 4 hours or more in duration, first leg out to a distant landmark or location (preferably a restaurant or park with a BBQ), and than back for the second leg.
    2. A beach "Le Mans" style start is required from "high water mark", and all skids, dolly, wheels or launching equipment (if used) must be carried on the boat for the duration of the event.
    3. All gear, refreshments, equipment, clothing, tools, supplies, etc. used during each stage of the race must be carried on the boat or the crew during each leg of the event.

    G. Scoring for the Raid race day events toward season total shall be as follows:
    1. First contestant to return will receive 300 points. Second, 180 points. Third 120 points. Fourth 60 points. Every finisher after fourth place, within the time limit (if any), 30 points each. DNF receives zero points.

    H. Highest point total for crew and boat at the end of the season shall
    be the season winner

    I. Paddles, oars or other muscle powered propulsion may be used on "raid"
    events, and whenever the judges deem there is inadequate wind during any
    of the short race day events

    J. All competitors must wear PFD, and immersion gear for the long distance events. The race officials may disqualify any boat if it appears unsafe (especially for the longer distance events).

    K. If both crews agree, a demonstration "crew swap challenge" can be made between two or more crew and boats. No points except bragging rights earned

    L. Event organizers or event sponsors are free to add other awards or prizes, such as best new design, or most innovative use of non-boat hardware, winner of any individual race, people choice award, etc. But these will not add points toward season total

    VII. Rule Changes. Will be announced by January 31 for that season’s rules. Rule changes should be done by committee, to meet the purposes of the class objectives.
     

    Attached Files:

    1 person likes this.
  3. Richard Woods
    Joined: Jun 2006
    Posts: 2,209
    Likes: 172, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1244
    Location: Back full time in the UK

    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I was very pleased to see that you now have your rules finalised.

    It would appear that there are many existing boats that meet your requirements

    For example the OK dinghy sounds perfect. Designed in 1956-7 in the era of wood masts and cotton sails

    I quote:

    "The OK Dinghy was the brainchild of Danish architect Axel Damgaard Olsen. Having already introduced the world famous Optimist dinghy into Europe from Florida he next persuaded Danish boat designer Knud Olsen to design a light, fast planning dinghy that could be built and sailed by amateurs, both quickly and cheaply.

    The OK Dinghy's single hard chine and relatively flat bottom panels made it ideal for home construction. The original wooden spars and cotton sails could also be constructed by the amateur, and in garages and sheds right across the world this is exactly what happened, as thousands of OK Dinghies were hurriedly put together to join in the fun afloat"

    This would be a good place to start

    http://www.okdia.org/technical/manual/index.php

    If you want a multihull then my Strike 15 trimaran would be an option

    http://sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/designs/27-trimarans-under-25/223-strike-15-trimaran

    It would appear both boats could be built for the budget (I assume the prices refer to USD, not Canadian or Australian on even pesos?) providing you used home made wood spars and sewed your own sails. (you can easily buy dacron sailcloth for USD1 a square foot)

    And that is using good quality plywood eg from

    http://www.boulterplywood.com/MarinePlywood_4.htm

    Clearly you can save a lot of money by building to 1950's standards

    You could use cheaper, inferior ply. Polyurethane glue and polyester resin not epoxy. Galvanised fencing wire for rigging, "clothesline" blocks for deck gear. Polypropylene rope. Decking (especially foredecks) could be canvas or even "sticky backed plastic". Saves weight as well. No need for a mainhalyard. That saves weight and cost (after all the Laser doesn't have one).

    Mind you, as delivery costs are excluded if I was serious about winning I'd source all my parts by mail order from the Far East and never mind the shipping. Clearly you cannot insist that all raw materials come from your own country. Okoume /gaboon wood only grows Africa, for example. Luan only in the Philippines. Who knows where polyester resin is really made

    Slightly slower than what the money-no-object boat would be, but the boats I mention are still quicker than a Laser or Hobie 14

    So I wish you luck with your new class, my own Strike 15 will be sailing in the PNW later in the year and it will be interesting to see how it measures up to the competition.

    However if these two boats are NOT what you have in mind then I suggest modifying the rules urgently. I would have suggested the hugely popular 13ft home built Enterprise dinghy (probably 10,000 built by amateurs in the UK in the 1950-60's) but it is 5ft 4in wide so out of class

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_(dinghy)

    But the GP14 might fit

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GP14_(dinghy)

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  4. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 2,936
    Likes: 148, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1593
    Location: Arlington, WA-USA

    Petros Senior Member

    Thank you for posting Richard,

    Those are excellent places to start, exactly the kind of boats I hope this class will stimulate interest in. And these would also be good starting points to encourage experimentation in low cost improvements. the whole idea behind the class, stimulate creative ideas to design and build fast and fun yet inexpensive to build boats.

    I think creative application of technology using low cost materials should yield some good performing yet inexpensive boats.
     
  5. DriesLaas
    Joined: Aug 2009
    Posts: 159
    Likes: 4, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 48
    Location: South Africa

    DriesLaas Weekend Warrior

    So has anyone designed a boat to this rule?
     
  6. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 2,936
    Likes: 148, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1593
    Location: Arlington, WA-USA

    Petros Senior Member

    The center for wooden boats in Seattle WA, USA holds a wood boat regatta in September 2013, and they have agreed to hold this as a class if we can get at least 3 entries. I started working on one last summer just to enter it, even if no other entries were present. Unfortunately life got in the way, a series of more pressing family priorities kept me from making the dead line, I could not even attend the race as a spectator, so I do not know if anyone else built a boat to meet the rules. It did rain hard that whole weekend, so it might not have been very pleasant as either a contestant or a spectator.

    We will need to promote the class so more people are aware of it and perhaps build a boat around these rules. I do plan to pick up the project and have ready by the end of the summer. I do not know what else to do to promote it as a class, perhaps get some local sailing publications to do a story on the class.
     
  7. DriesLaas
    Joined: Aug 2009
    Posts: 159
    Likes: 4, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 48
    Location: South Africa

    DriesLaas Weekend Warrior

    Hi Petros, can you share some images of what you are working on?
     
  8. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 2,936
    Likes: 148, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1593
    Location: Arlington, WA-USA

    Petros Senior Member

    It is all under a tarp right now, as the weather improves I will pull it out and take some pics.

    I was going to develop a new hull based on the scaled down lines of the Javelin, but I realized I had a hull that I needed to rebuild anyway that was scaled down from a K-18 to 14 ft. So I am going to rebuild that with a few changes to fit the rules, it is a skin on frame design, so material costs are relatively low. I will also design and build a new sailing rig for it, which I have been wanting to experiment with anyway. Now I have a class that I can do all this experimenting within, and do it inexpensively.
     
  9. Skyak
    Joined: Jul 2012
    Posts: 1,417
    Likes: 119, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 152
    Location: United States

    Skyak Senior Member

    There has been so much speculation on this board about the ultimate winner I think we are missing the major point -which is FUN. This is the only development class I have seen that caps the cost and tries to encourage more well rounded useful boats. The $600 boat cost might be overshadowed by beer and food expenses at the end of the first season. When I think of all the arguments about performance on this blog it is so refreshing to think that we can use this class to resolve it in a far more interesting and useful way.

    About promotion and getting the class going I see three groups to target
    -boat builders/designers
    -woodworkers
    -outdoor activists

    A Web site for the class would be a start. In addition to the rules sheet and a blog we could have the spreadsheet for costs with some local hardware prices and signups for volume buys. Social media was mentioned. Locally in Chicago we have paddling and outdoor activity groups using http://www.meetup.com/find/
    I think each location needs a 'Commodore' to make proposals for meets and weigh the response. I am wondering if there is any room for commercial interest -"Official Bar of..." "Official hardware store of..." to give the fleet a kitty because even parks charge rent. Relating to this site I wonder if any designers would contribute designs to the team of their choice for promotional value. Adding the cooler mount to their designs would be a nice gesture. A great first meeting would be to review these designs and resources.
     
  10. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 2,936
    Likes: 148, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1593
    Location: Arlington, WA-USA

    Petros Senior Member

    Excellent ideas Skyak,

    my thoughts were along the line that once we get an informal race or two piggybacked on some other event we could solicit sponsorship from various sources like one of the big box store chains. Consider for very minimal marketing investment a chain like Ace, Home Depo or Lowes would not only get exposure, but also have a wave of do-it-yourselfers going to not just buy materials, but tools, and other household items they need at home for other projects when they come shopping for supplies.

    As far as plans go, anything that fits the dimensional limits can be used, even if it takes a bit of modification, or specially designed boats, or even purchased plans, or commissioned plans by designers since the cost of plans, or how they are aquired, is not part of the cost basis. the only condition is that the owner of the design make them available to the race organization to sell, at the agreed on price after the first season (the designer still earns their commission, but so will the organization earn some too).


    A official website is an excellent idea, at least a facebook page perhaps.

    I have been so buried with work and serious family concerns I have not had a lot of time to develop the series further since last summer. Are there any volunteers who want to help with generating a website and perhaps a blog where other builders can share their project builds or design ideas?
     
  11. Skyak
    Joined: Jul 2012
    Posts: 1,417
    Likes: 119, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 152
    Location: United States

    Skyak Senior Member

    From the deafening silence I take it that nobody else is going to step up. I want to see this presented/considered for the coming season but to be honest I want it considered along side alternatives for human/wind powered adventure racing. My reasoning is that time constraints and building skill might limit the immediate appeal or more specifically the fleet density. If lots of people want to join the events but don't have time to build I have more solutions to consider.

    My opinion and direction is summed up by Steve Clark in this video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QapTDLMPxEQ

    If that is OK with you Petro I will take a stab at a web site with the goal of establishing local fleets with commodores and ultimately events. The site will start on one of the freemium providers and until fleets or revenues are established.
     
  12. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 2,936
    Likes: 148, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1593
    Location: Arlington, WA-USA

    Petros Senior Member

    great idea, have at it. I will be happy to contribute. my work has me so buried right now I can not even do maintenance on my house or car. but I hope to build a "first attempt" under these rules this year.

    Along with website, at least one example might help get some interest.
     
  13. Sailor Alan
    Joined: Mar 2014
    Posts: 299
    Likes: 15, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 85
    Location: Gig Harbor WA

    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    Dear sirs,

    I have been a forum member for a while, but just discovered your discussion over the Christmas vacation.

    As a three time winner of the Seattle Wooden Boat festivals 'Quick and Daring Boat Building' competition I am quite familia with the principles you are proposing. I propose that I, and if available my team mate from past victories, will also build a boat to your rules, and be ready for some future 4th July celebration.

    Here is a cartoon of my starting point, extremely reminiscent of the Moths I built about 50 years ago. I would like to point out the flat sheet development, and in particular the cockpit floor which acts as the upper web of a cantilever beam, and holds the sides together. Though in this case this is a developed boat following your rules, I reserve the right to build something rather different.

    Another point of departure might be Daniel Noys excellent cartoons of his 12' and proposed 15' Sandbaggers either in Cat rigged guise, or the awesome Sloop rigged version.

    As suggested, I propose to use galvanized wire rigging, cedar batten stringers, and plastic tarpaulin based sails. The hull will be sheet ply, and the spars TBD. In the past we have used a specific construction adhesive with excellent results, and used another specific concrete sealer as an excellent water proofing agent for the wood. Though we use galvanized brads, we also use coated 'deck' screws for higher load joints.

    The 'Quick and Daring' rules encourage very cheap and fast construction. We also assumed light was an advantage.

    This challenge is different, it needs a 'real' sailing dingy, not a rowing hybrid, and will reward light, strong, and hydrodynamicaly efficient boats.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Richard Woods
    Joined: Jun 2006
    Posts: 2,209
    Likes: 172, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1244
    Location: Back full time in the UK

    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Very interesting, looks similar to my new Zest dinghy. Is you boat under 5ft wide? Mine isn't, as I want more sail carrying power and the buoyant wings make it easier to sail

    http://sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/designs/1-beach-cats-and-dinghies-/436-zest

    The drawings are now nearly complete and I hope to build one in the two day Edensaw Boatbuilding competition in Port Townsend in September. It would be great if you could join Petros and I as we both did the event last year

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     

  15. Sailor Alan
    Joined: Mar 2014
    Posts: 299
    Likes: 15, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 85
    Location: Gig Harbor WA

    Sailor Alan Senior Member

    First a confession, i am an interloper here, having spent the last few decades helping design large commercial aircraft. My boat designing is limited to the design/build of a moth and a cherub ~52 years ago, and some recent hobby boats including the aforementioned Quick and Daring boats.

    Conditions on Lake Union, and indeed Puget Sound in high summer are really benign, not like the conditions pertaining in the UK, except perhaps on lakes/the Broads etc.

    I like your concept, and in simplified form might make an excellent contender in this class. Making the central hull a vertical sided ‘square’ does simplify construction a bit, and having wooden beam (my preference), aluminum tube, or even plastic tube, outriggers would work. I would bolt/attach them on top, possibly pin them through a deck mounted trunnion, as i do not like sockets so much.

    The hull volume would have to adjusted for two crew, 4-500lb i guess, but i am assuming a constant angle of entry for your forward chine, leading to a loaded draft exactly half the loaded WL beam. This water flow will never happen when actually sailing, but a good enough theory. I hope this increase in load will not effect your beam too much, but should still be less than 3’ i hope. I can see the trimaran influence here, very good.

    I too am aiming for absolute minimum WL Beam, and my boat as drawn is 14‘ LOA, and 5’ maximum beam. This is assuming single use, Seattle in summer. As drawn it is a bit complicated to build. My current influence is the Mistral series of Classic Moth for its extreme simplicity of build. I am thinking along these lines as the number of joints is greatly reduced. Note; reducing the number or length of joints is a way of making commercial aircraft simpler/cheaper, and i may be unduly influenced.

    The rig is an issue for me. In your case, a real class, one can spend a bit on a mast and sail, possibly even pinch one from another established class. I am assuming an aluminum tube mast, several lengths slid inside each other and epoxy bonded as we did 50+ years ago in NZ. Now of course i might be able to get a length of carbon fiber tube from Boeing surplus. Alternately, a hollow square or triangle (a triangle is self aligning) from door skin might work too. We currently make our spinnaker poles this way.

    I am assuming tarpaulin sails, but beyond that i have not thought much.

    Competing in the Seattle Q&D competition was quite different. Building a boat of ones own design from scratch in 4-6 hours focuses one on simple build and self tooling shapes. Not necessarily simple shapes, but self supporting, self tooling.

    Please note, these are NOT stitch and glue boats, though i suppose they could be made that way. I am extremely allergic to epoxies, so we use construction adhesive over cedar stringers. Stringer/skin is usually much lighter than ply strong enough to support itself, perhaps except when severely curved (airplane theory).

    I have contacted my Q&D team, and some others and there is both interest, and lots of advice on shape, build, rig, etc.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.