New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Petros, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. Spartiate
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    Spartiate New Member

    My apologies. Post 438 stated,
    and I missed Petros's subsequent correction in Post 445. I still think (based on extrapolation of volume from the $300 often cited for a workable PDR) that $600 is tight for a 14x7 boat, but might work with Petros's new, proposed 5-5.5' beam.
    The exact term used was "rise of floor," (Post 137 and responses) but I stand by the point I made in the preceding sentence.
    Me either. I also don't believe it's the boat most likely to win a race organized under these rules. I do believe it's the [US] class closest to the target market (low budget, hobbyist, relying on imagination rather than big $); recent, rapidly growing, and providing the best analogy for this ruleset.

    My own tastes incline toward boats that incorporate what I call the 5 "Ls" of efficient boat design: long, low, lean, light, and laminar [water flow around the hull]. I also prefer the structural advantages (and aesthetics) of forcing curvature into light plywood over strength gained through framing or heavier scantlings. I love kayaks, rec shells, and small multis; if I were to build a boat to this rule, it would probably be something like a bigger Mistral Moth.
    Thanks!
    I for one like a focus on sail rather than hull limitations, and in fact really liked the idea of designing around a particular sail. Sail rules place fewer limitations on creativity, and--by limiting the "engine"--drive innovation toward more efficient hull design.

    Take care,
    Mike
     
  2. sawmaster
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    sawmaster Senior Member

    re:participation in the contest

    Lake Union looks beautiful --I would love to be there but its just too damned far from texas .If the response to your invitation to the west coast fling is somewhat less than than hoped,how about moving the event to a venue closer to the geographical center of the country? That way East coast and Gulf states sailors might be more likely to participate.I'll bet some of the everglades challenge people might even want to field an entry.I dont know if I can find enough interested parties in my area to make a viable fleet.The only other texan I've seen on this forum is upchurchmr--Maybe he knows some folks in Dallas?
     
  3. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    has anyone actually thought to try and build one for the price ? You may find you are creating a class impossible to build.

    Also, a prototype with accompanying plan would be a good starting point for the non-designing sailor. At least they could get on the water without years of experimentation.
     
  4. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    I have to put the last few tweaks on the rules, and than I will post them here. I am also going to send them out to other places where they hold boat building workshops and related activities to encourage them to start their own chapters. I would consider it a major triumph if we can have 3 or 4 places in the country holding this kind of event in the next two years. that would be enough to have a national champion race.

    Sawmaster, it appears you have a number of large lakes not far from Tyler, and you are also not far from Dallas. with population centers that large you can perhaps get a local chapter going there. If not there than perhaps Huston, which has a very active sailing community and likely you can get some interest there, though that is a bit of a drive for you, but not so far that it is unreasonable to do. Places that have active Puddle duck fleets would be a good place to start, or places that hold boat building workshops.

    the only thing that matters is the boats be built to the same set of rules, than people from all over can built and compete on an even basis.

    I know of a number of local wood boat activity centers in the Puget sound area where they hold building workshops. A boat within these rules would make good subjects for group workshops. And I know of a few on the Atlantic coast.

    Does anyone on this list know of any other places like this elsewhere in the country that might be interested in starting a fleet? let me know and I will be happy to contact them and provide an official set of final rules.
     
  5. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    rwatson,

    we are going to try and identify a number of existing boats that would fit within the rules that could be built with low cost materials. I have in mind some the the great old designs published in the old Popular Mechanics and Mechanix illestrated magazines. After a few years we should also have the several "winning" designs to publish as well. remember, that was one of the conditions, the wining designs have to be made available for anyone to buy (plans) the next season.

    Any suggestions on existing designs that would be a good starting point? remember hull is 14'x5', overall length 16' and lowest point of sail to highest point is 20 ft. And $600 material cost. Everything else is wide open.
     
  6. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Yes indeed.

    Choose a simple one design sail and mast combo...a Laser or Optimist rig for instance. Then write a simple rule that the hull and deck shall be built out of a maximum of 5 or whatever 4x8 x 6mm sheets of marine ply.

    If after a season your hull is not up to performace just bring it back to the lab and redesign around the standard sailplan
     
  7. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    ooh errrr ! I hope not. They aren't exactly up to date. Even a Mirror dinghy would be better than that.

    Actually, a wrecked mirror hull would be a good shape to 'splash' with a few sheets of plywood and/or sheets of hardware foam.

    It will be interesting to see how much FG and epoxy one can buy in the budget.
     
  8. messabout
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    messabout Senior Member

    RWatson is both right and wrong. He is right that some of the old Popular Mechanix boats were insufferable dogs. On the other hand there were some very good ones that would still be competitive. The problem for the less experienced participant would be how to determine good from bad.

    I was just pawing around in my bookshelves. I found an ancient book from Rudder publishing. The title: 21 Plywood Boats (and how to build them) There are several perfectly good plan sets that would fit this application. One of them looks sure enough like it would be an Uffa Fox design. Another is almost a Snipe, Plans for a Sabot, etc. Seems to me that researching the old Rudder books would unearth some pretty good boats. Rudder used established designers like Crosby, Atkin, Stephens, etc. These old books were pre epoxy so the boats tended to have heavier frames and other structural parts that would not be necessary today. The designs were pretty good though.
     
  9. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    So, not that wrong! The weight is a major problem for this class, given the economics constraint for materials.
     
  10. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    about a third of the designs in the old "Popular" type magazines are from well known and very competent designers. go look for yourself, you will be surprised.

    Of course lots of them are junk, but that is sometimes true of designs from otherwise compatent designers. So you have to pick and choose from them.

    It would be a simple matter I think of taking these old "public domain" plans and updating them to use more modern materials and construction details. Might be a good way to be able to sell some plans too.
     
  11. JRD
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    JRD Senior Member

    Action?

    Hey Petros, whats up? your thread has slipped onto page 2

    After all the discussion here I am curious, are there people in sheds as we speak, cutting and joining and generally bringing their $600 dreams into reality? As our southern hemisphere sailing season passes half way and heads towards winter, yours is not all that far away. I had expected to see a flurry of building threads appearing here, but alas no.

    Do you have an update, or any designing / building action to report?

    Cheers
    Jeff
     
  12. sawmaster
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    sawmaster Senior Member

    re:-latest action-
    I'm nearing completion of an eleven footer-not my official entry-but would qualify as the cost will be well under $600.00-this is no hard feat to accomplish if your used to poverty.This is the third boat Ive built in the last 10 years(the largest of which was 15 ft) and I haven't spent 600.00 dollars on any of them--of course,I used a mast and sail from a production boat on the last two,but even with a poly tarp sail and homebuilt mast,I should be out about 450.00-not counting paint.(This design only uses 4 sheets of 1/4 ply)
     
  13. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Its going to be hard to assess boats built using secondhand gear. Do we use the purchase price, or some kind of formula for depreciation of new gear. A cheap ( $5 ) carbon fibre windsurfer mast for example ? A big advantage on cost rule.
     
  14. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    I have to do a few final edits to the rules and I will post them here. You all are free, and are encouraged, to use them to form your own local chapters, perhaps in cooperation with any local PD racer, or similar dingy sailing or boat building school.

    Sawmaster: that is exactly the spirit of how we formulated these rules. to get the creative jucies going to create fun useful little boats that can be built with commonly availabe low cost materials. I have a lot of ideas of my own, but I am looking forward to see what other people come up with too, and see what I might steal for my own use.

    Rwatson; Although I have built a lot of small boats from salvaged materials too, we made the decision early on to not make it a contest on who could do the best job of salvaging materials. You could not duplicate the boat some where else within the budget if salvage was allowed. So if you salvage materials, we have to count the local retail price of buying the supplies new. So you would have to use the retail value of the windsurfer mast as your cost basis, even if you only paid $5 for it. We will eventually work up a "price list" for common materials to use as the cost basis, so if someone does a bulk buy or salvage materials, everyone will still be judged on same cost basis. the idea is that anyone could take the plans for your boat and buy materials retail, and build it for about the budget cost.

    The final rules will be released in the next 10 days. No more changes for this season anyway, though we may tweak them for next year if there are any issues that come up this season.
     

  15. Lister

    Lister Previous Member

    Lets face it: adult sailing cost. What ever you do.
    Kids sailing a little less. Go Optimist.
     
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