New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules

Eh? Not on any International Moth I've seen or sailed.

 

Nope, Moths are not allowed trapezes or planks. Which, incidentally, is probably why they were the class were the wing or rack was developed. It seems to prove that restrictions don't prevent innovation all the time - often closing off one avenue (i.e. banning traps and planks in Moths) creates a new device that is unlikely to have been created otherwise.

I thought this class also banned traps (as the Moths do) and therefore the fact that the Moth rule bans traps is irrelevant.

 

What Petros said is legal is a wire supporting a pivoting seat-not a trapeze supporting a person directly.

 

well I stand corrected, I could have sworn I have see traps on moths. perhaps not, or perhaps they were not in a race. those wings I guess can give that impression since it puts the crew so far out to the side.

wings and movable seats okay as long as they stay within the "box" rule, and their operation is not a hazard to the crew.

 

Interesting dicussion of moth rules, trapezes and hiking aids. However, in the first thread the aim was a new class of day sailers. Are such features found on day sailers and if so are they used?

We started off with a lot of ingenuity being poured into rules that would result in boats with good performance that could and would be used for pleasure; I think the last thing we want is a class of moth design ripoffs with space for a beer cooler.

Once again I request no trapezes, no hiking or hiking aids - stay inside the boat, races designed to expose unsafe designs and rules to penalize them.

 

==================
The above quote IS the first post of this thread. A degree of "high performance" has been mentioned throughout this thread starting in the post above. Restricting designs to configurations where the crew has to sit inside goes completely against the idea as I understood it and as Petros wrote about it above.
Encouraging innovative design is important ,in my opinion.

 

IMHO Ancient Kayaker has a fair point. The rules version 1 posted above state that the object is to create a "class of good performing day sailors" to "promote entry level sailing and encourage more people to get involved" in boats that would be "safe and practical and still suitable as a day sailor".

Very few daysailers for entry level sailors have traps, planks or wings. Even the very innovative UK market, where the big manufacturers compete for the lucrative resort sailing market where people often try out faster kit in warmer waters, doesn't have racks or traps or planks on their entry-level boats. This is not because they are less enlightened that people on BDF, it is because they have vastly more experience in this area than we do.

There are some advantages to having hiking assistance

Personally I can't agree that banning hiking (although the exact act being banned hasn't been defined) is a good idea for several reasons;

1 - Historically we know that classes that banned hiking ended up creating complex devices to restrict the performance, comfort and safety issues that the ban created. This does depend on the exact mechanism of the ban but we can't discuss that without more detail.

2 - Enforcement can be difficult. It's easy to call for a ban, writing a rule that prevents it is not.

3 - Safety issues could be serious. Definitions of "high performance" vary but few "high performance" boats can be sailed through a strong wind without being hiked. I think anyone whose crew has had to move inboard to fix something when beating upwind in a big breeze would have noticed very quickly how fast the boat becomes difficult to sail.

How would it work, for example, on a puffy day. The family is sailing along happily when a gust strikes. Puget Sound is not the windiest place on earth but surely there will be many gusts that cannot be handled just by easing sails, especially when those sails are not controlled by spectra sheets and ball bearing blocks, but by Home Depot sail controls.

So as the boat heels in a second or two, is the family crew supposed to just sit there and feel it roll and see the gunwale smack down to water level, while they are frozen just inside the gunwale? What happens if the daughter on board instinctively leans out while the boat heels - is that a DSQ? What happens if there are two rivals racing hard and one boat, the crew member leans out in an instinctive reaction to every gust in a two hour race - is that a DSQ? If not, how does the crew who stayed inside the gunwales abiding by the rules feel if they are beaten by a foot?

IF you ban hiking straps you also end up with safety and comfort issues if you go the way of FSs and Etchells.

 

Doug: my objection is to the length of the thread devoted to another irrelevant discussion - you don't need to quote the entire post BTW.

Chris' objections to planks etc. which have no place on a day sailer cover mine so I removed them in this post. There is a reasonable concern that hiking straps give an advantage to athletic crews, but you don't need to be athletic to "stay in the boat" and it's is a hard rule to circumvent.

The original objective is clearly expressed in Petros original words "day sailors/materials limited to $300/materials purchased from any mail order or national hardware store/no spinnaker, or trapeze/transport on car top or trailer/safe and practical/designs that anyone can build . . . " but the dark side of the force is continually trying to move away from this

 

I do not really see the issue with a toe strap, they can actually improve safety. Your concern that someone younger and more fit will have an advantage I think is unfounded because the design of the different type of events will not necessarily give an advantaged to the use of hiking straps. Someone posted that better recreational sailboats are ones that go up and down wind better, reaching (where hiking out will have the advantage) is what racing boats do well, not going up and down wind. So at least my plan is to promote the idea to the race planners to make coarse where reaching will not play a big factor.

Beside, if you are like me, older and not as fit, that extra weight we have been putting on will provide much more righting moment without having to hike out as far. ;-)

Or are you saying that because of your age, you do not want anyone else to use hiking straps? They are simple low cost devices, do not created a safety concern as far as I can recall, so I am disinclined to ban them.

Just to make sure we understand each other, when I say hiking strap I am talking about a length of webbing attached to the floor of the boat near the center line to allow you to put your feet under it and keep you from having to hold on with your hands as you lean back over the gunwale. I am not sure there would be a way to prevent that even if you banned that kind of a the strap. If you had something else in mind than I should know about it to consider it separately.

 

Petros: the concern over perceived unfair advantage for athletic crews was Doug's I believe.

My concern is primarily safety, if you are hiking outside of the boat, you are more likely to fall in or get hit by another boat.

Day sailors aren't going to hike. A boat developed to use such a feature in a race may not be a good day sailer.

To elaborate my concerns: if I were designing to a stay-in-the-boat rule with penalties for wet ride and bailing, it would be beamy with adequate freeboard and accommodation. On the other hand with hiking and/or planks permitted it would probably be narrower to minimize wetted surface and as a consequence less stable, perhaps flat topped with a little socket for the cooler, and I might well scan every word of the rules to see if I get away with foils. I'm not saying I can do that within the rules - I don't know where they are at present - but that would be my aim.

 

are there other class rules that do not allow hiking out? how do they enforce it?

 

"Daysailer"

The essence of a daysailer, the O'Day daysailer:

 

Where do people get this stuff? Upwind performance is a huge priority in a western racing boat because you spend so much more time doing it than anything else. And at the moment there is a fashion in many classes not to have reaching legs at all in races. Some racing dinghies (the 49er is an example) are so completely geared for windward/leeward courses that some competitors will ***** if expected to reach... They sail downwind in a series of reaches rather than dead running simply because dead running is the slowest point of sailing - they go through the water faster on a beat than the laws of physics will permit you to go on a dead run.

 

I have a friend at work who attempts to redefine common English words to make them mean what he wants.
The term "day sailor" seems to be falling afoul of this trend.

Is a Laser or a Tornado cat or an Optimist pram a "day sailor"?
According to the usage I grew up with they all are.

I don't want to be in a boat I am not ALLOWED to hike out in because I think that is unsafe. Those of us who are getting older, less athletic are just going to have to gracefully accept that sailing demands some ability. Perhaps another class of non development, non athletic, non interesting boat should be proposed called the Grandfather class. You could cut the typical sail area in half, put in a padded chair, and a parasol to keep you out of the sun. Require an electric motor and batteries to insure you could get back to shore.

Sorry, my poor attitude showed up early this morning, but I still believe the words are being twisted beyond reason.

 

Imo,the toe straps should be a safety REQUIREMENT- I cant see how a hiking ban could be enforced-I agree with CT 249s "puffy day" scenario.Even though I'm older,and fatter and no longer physically fit enough to "droop hike" all the way around a course,please dont take my toe straps-the only thing that allows me to securely lean my torso outboard during the occasional puff (the only kind of hiking I do).Sailing a small boat is by nature a somewhat physical activity,and if I'm defeated by a younger,more physically fit competitor,so be it.In fact,one of my design objectives is to create boat that can be competitive in most conditions without having to "droop hike" all around the course.Hiking, in some form, is a sailing technique,the banning of which,makes no more sense than banning dumping the sheet during a puff.