new low cost design competion

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by sawmaster, Sep 16, 2010.

  1. sawmaster
    Joined: May 2010
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    sawmaster Senior Member

    Important guidelines for low cost design competion

    wow,lampy,
    Youve raised a lot of issues,Ill try to answer as fully as possible.Keeping in mind that one of the main purposes of this competition is to develop low cost ,high performance dinghies for the homebuilder,my intention was to limit hull materials to plywood and dimensional lumber that is widely available. Standard shop tools are assumed,so the dimensional lumber can be cut to whatever width/thickness desired.Im thinking of 16 ft loa as a cut off point for length,no limit on beam,sail area or displacement,designs to be ply on frame for home building and divided into trapeeze,and non-trapeeze classes.The designer is free to enter the same boat in both classes,(by use of removable hiking racks and alternate rigs for example.)If you are a professional,who thinks he/she has already designed the ultimate performance per dollar sailing dinghy for the home builder,you are welcome to enter an example of that design,regardless of how many years ago it was designed,and how many have already been built.I would however, require the actual boat entered,to have been built the same year the competition is to be held,to avoid looking for 10 yr old bills of material and converting to 2011 prices.I dont believe it would be necessary to limit the amount spent on materials,spend as much as you want,keeping in mind,that it is performance in knots per dollar spent that wins the competition,not necessarily highest speed registered.As to the venue,I had imagined this competition as loosely based on yachting magazines One of A Kind Regatta with folks coming from all around to a central location.However,it may be more practical to have regional contests first, with only the winners advancing to the national.Lampy I think you should organize the northwest region,(western Canada thru northern California, Ill take the southeast(Texas gulf thru Florida)
    Now,as to the competition itself,Ithink it should be a timed run around a measured course, with equal amounts of beating,reaching,and running to promote good all around performance.More on this later, got to go now,
    Saw
    since
     
  2. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    I think one of my $60 canoes would run away with it! Paddle upwind, and the good old umbrella sail trick downwind! Should set the bar at around $20/k, unless I can get a younger (than 70) paddler! Er, do I have to count the cost of the umbrella? :)

    p.s., oh wait: the paddle set me back $275
     
  3. sawmaster
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    sawmaster Senior Member

    canoe could be the answer

    howdy ancient k
    You may have something there,although using the "ash breeze" would not be allowed in a sailboat competition,I would expect to see sailing canoes,scows,and planing dinghies all vying for the title.You would have to get a real expert to get it all the way around the course with out capsizing because upside down is not good for elapsed time.Twenty bucks/knot would be fantastic,I thought 65/knot would have been great.If you could get 7 knots out of a 500 dollar boat,which I think is doable,that comes out to 71.43/knot.Anyone who wants to spend 2000 dollars,would have to average 28 knots in order to win-thats a pretty tall order.At first,since I had hoped the competition would lead to a low cost,high performance boat for "the masses",I had thought about excluding canoes,because there are just not that many sailors with the skill to keep them upright.But then again, a moth type dinghy is not known to be particularly stable either.Idont know exactly how to get around this.On one hand, Iwould like to see the winning design be one that at least 75% of the sailing public would be able to sail,but on the other hand I dont want to stiffle innovation either.Maybe some sort stability requirement?Icould use some help from the forum on how stability could be quantified and tested.
    Saw
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2010
  4. sawmaster
    Joined: May 2010
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    sawmaster Senior Member

    Using free materials in low cost design design competion

    Hey Lampy:
    Sorry about taking so long to answer your post,but I got off on other topics and the librarian chased me off the computer before I could get to answer.There is no high speed internet out in the sticks where I live,so I use the computer at the library in town.If you want to use free plywood to reduce your own costs thats perfectly alright but for the purposes of the competition the surface area would be measured,divided by 32(to get the number of sheets used),and then multiplied by the average cost per sheet in your area.It would be that cost that would be used in your dollar/knot calculation.Again,the point is to come up with the fastest boat for the money for the home builder,we cant assume that everyone will have access to free material.As to your question about sponsorship,I really must confess to ignorance on this topic.I have never participated in a sponsored event,nor have I ever sought sponsorship for a project.I am open to being educated on this subject. If it would contribute to the goal of a low cost high performance design for the home builder, I see no reason to prohibit it.One note about sails-I see no reason to prohibit dacron sails even though they will drive the cost up somewhat.Even with a sailrite kit,I expect the winning design could still come in for around 1000 or just over.Of course,If you use a sail you already have,thats the same as free material,so your design would be assessd the cost of the sailrite kit of the same or similar sail.Some folks might want to have both a conventional sail and a polysail.Run the course once with your dacron sail.If your "expensive" sail puts you out of the running(i.e.too many dollars for speed achieved),rerig with your polysails,have your design rerated 400 dollars or so cheaper,and run the course again.This way we will really see the cost/benefit.
     
  5. BATAAN
    Joined: Apr 2010
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    Planing dinghy like Paperjet 14 <http://www.dixdesign.com/paperjet.htm>, clench nails, A/C ply, adhesive caulk. Go fast little money.
     
  6. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    There will be a lot of stress in a boat like that which will likely need the best materials to stay together as well as deliver its intended performance.
     
  7. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    You're probably right. The original is epoxy stitch and glue.
     
  8. sawmaster
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    sawmaster Senior Member

    fast low tech boats

    If you guys would check out the 10-06-08 post starting with Sawdustmaker,you"ll find pics ,plans, and testimonials about a superfast homebuilt which appeared in popular mechanics magazine in the early 70's.It was called Tabu.I'm sure that at speed it generated some pretty high forces also-with no need for high tech materials.This is the kind of speed per dollar performance the contest would be intended to promote-not the three thousand or so dollars needed for a Dix paperjet.
    Sawmaster
     
  9. Submarine Tom

    Submarine Tom Previous Member

    Only read the first and last page but I'm thinking a materials package would be the way to go here. Reduces a lot of uncontrolled variables. Sponsors could donate to the package and that's all you can use. They'd all be identical, even the tools. Time limit for building, time limit for drying/curing and resting up before the big race. Safety and insurance will become large issues. Each year different packages could be created for variety and as the "design curve" evolves.

    -Tom
     
  10. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    The clock has ticked a lot since the 1970s. Sawdustmaker is an exceptional woodworker and craftsman, and the end result I believe was not as spectacular a performer as he had hoped, although the performance issues encountered could have been addressed. There were real, obvious issues with the flat polytarp sails, the rig, adhesives used and the surface finish / waterproofing. Tuning a performance boat can turn a Bassett Hound into a Greyhound - and time on the water can allow a dog of a boat to perform like a rocket in the right hands.

    Base materials cost more now, and materials science has improved dramatically as well. Expectations on boat quality are much higher now that we understand how to make low cost materials perform and last.

    I was interested in this concept somewhat in the beginning, but I just don't have enough free time to building what is effectively a disposable 4 or 5 use boat. With just a slight cost increase and very little effort increase you can make a high performance boat that will last for years.

    I have no doubt that I could produce a boat that met the Devoti D-one target (hiking, single hand, asymmetrical kite) pretty closely, but I would rather build it to enjoy for many seasons at a slight cost premium. Since the intent of the idea in the beginning was to instigate low cost high performance homebuilds, I think the contest should be modified to acknowledge that home builders also would value longevity as much as dollar per knot.

    --
    CutOnce
     
  11. sawmaster
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    sawmaster Senior Member

    The price of durability

    O.K. Cutonce:
    I understand where you're comming from,but in my experience unsheathed plywood boats last a bit longer than 5 or 6 outings.Admittedly,the homebuilts I grew up on were not high-performance craft and so were not subjected to a lot of stress.They were also stored inside for the most part and kept dry inside.I remember a lapstrake plywood boat my father built that lasted 4 years before succombing to massive rot.That being said,how much do you think a reasonably durable,plywood-epoxy sheathed version of the D-1 would cost? If it would be SIGNIFICANTLY more durable at not much more money it would probably be worth it.
     
  12. sawmaster
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    sawmaster Senior Member

    more thoughts on durability

    There are many attributes a sailboat may have,each held in various orders of importance,depending on the individual sailor.Durability is one,and not unimportant to most,its just that it would be very difficult to quantify in a contest.If it was to be part of the contest,we would'nt know the winner for years.(Sure,you beat my time around the course, but here it is 4 years later,and my boat is still sailing,while yours disintergrated after 3--so I win ?)
    We all know,glass and fabric covered boats are more durable,thats not the issue.We all know that with deep pockets,you can buy all the speed you can handle,and then some.Thats not the issue either.The purpose of this contest,is,to the greatest degree possible,remove money as the determining factor in performance sailing.Skill in design and execution of that design,as measured by an easily quantified" Time around a measured course"is what the competition is about.As I stated earlier in this post,the winning design could always be "beefed up" later with fabric and epoxy if desired,the added weight of which should affect performance minimally,if at all.However,to avoid losing the support of good designers who wish to incorporate more "high tech" materials in their design from the beginning,and who may wish to keep their boats for many years after the contest,we could have cost divisions,for example $900.00 and below,901 to 1800,1801 to 2700 etc.But at some point it would have to be cut off ,since it would no longer be about LOW COST high performance sailing.
     
  13. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    Maybe a long skinny "stringers and skin" kayak built thing with small outriggers making a trimaran.
     
  14. P Flados
    Joined: Oct 2010
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    P Flados Senior Member

    I like the concept, especially where most do not worry about building boats that last. Most boats built on a first try would not be worth keeping around for long anyway. An advantage of this competition would be the "prototype" nature of the results.

    If you slap something together and find that some part is just not working out, you toss that part and try again. Remember that good performance comes from having all of the elements (hull, rig, boards, etc) figured out. If a bunch were actually built, the boats with better performance (or a boat with a “better idea” for a certain element) would provide both bragging rights and would prompt ideas for a second round.

    Initial performance comparison could be a simple as trying to beat the local store bought competition. Being able to reliably beat the fastest sunfish, laser, etc. is something we could all relate to. Videos of side by side runs and/or placements records from local races would keep people honest about performance. Actual calcualtion of cost vs. speed is not essential, tell us the performance and tell us the cost and the merit of a given achievement would be pretty obvious.

    If a few designs actually perform better than a typical, "over the counter dingy", it would then be worth building upgraded versions with better materials to achieve durability. However, until performance is proven, using better materials is probably just a waste, and even worse it may hold you back from correcting something that needs to be changed.

    Designs that build simple and cheep should be an absolute must. Tedious is OK, but CNC machining, pre-preg material, etc just would not seem right. Remember that part of the goal would be designs that could be shared for others to build.

    Another advantage of keeping things cheep is that it might push some to get off of their computer and into their shop. Lots of people like to propose trying new things, but it is a lot different when there is consensus to just put up or shut up.
     

  15. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    I built a plywood / epoxy / paint / no glass boat this past year, testing many of the low cost concepts I'd use in this project.

    I substituted 6 mm plywood on the hull bottom instead of the 3mm used elsewhere. I epoxy coated the plywood panels instead of saturating them with cut-down varnish. I tried really hard to use first latex paint (absolutely hated it) then I sanded that off and tried oil-based house paint. A little better, but I sanded that off too. No matter how you try, you can't get a hard, durable finish from house paint without orange peel and at least five coats. Believe me, I tried. I tried Penetrol and every trick I could learn from professional painters.

    I ended up using two-part polyurethane automotive paint and it at least was acceptable. Less weight, better finish and it looks like a boat, not a garden shed. Roll & Tip technique works fine as long as you are prepared to use rubbing compound after sanding the final coat with 400 - 600 then rubbing compound and a polisher. Next wax and it looks like a real boat.

    Even with the poly paint, the boat doesn't handle bangs & bumps as well as one with a 'glass layer under the paint. The boat just isn't hard enough.

    Getting good chines and a fair hull means fairing compound and longboarding. No matter how hard your try with chine logs, stringers and sheer clamps, it just hasn't worked out accurately enough for my standards. I guess my skills are lacking or my standards are too high.

    This time I'd rather stick to the 3mm ply with the lightest possible glass/epoxy layer on the outside. Cedar stringers provide critical support on large spans of ply. The hardness of the surface and quality of finish is very high on my "important for speed" list. Weight should be the same to a little less, but I know I'll be happier with the result.

    Epoxy fillets as well on joints - you can't beat the strength to weight.

    I'd estimate the boat ready to go will cost around $900 - 1000, although I could build a disposable version for less than half that using PL Premium construction adhesive and skipping the glass/epoxy.

    --
    CutOnce
     
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