New Gas,...BIG problems

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by brian eiland, Jun 14, 2014.

  1. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    a little history

    ...from another forum discussion
     
  2. messabout
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Location: Lakeland Fl USA

    messabout Senior Member

    Energy return on investment (EROI) compares the output energy of various fuelsa gainst production and marketing costs. The minimum EROI required for the basic functions of an industrial society needs to have a ratio of 5 to9. Five is minimal Here are the calculated ratios from various sources.
    Conventional oil......................... 16
    Ethanol from sugar cane............ 9.0
    Biodiesel from soy.......................5.5
    Tar sands oil extract....................5.0
    Heavy California oil......................4.0
    Ethanol from corn........................1.4

    Comparative distance driven on one gigajoule of energy invested in fuel production.
    Conventional oil..........................3600 miles
    ethanol sugar cane......................2000
    Biodiesel from soy.......................1400
    Gasoline from heavy oil................. 900
    ethanol from corn......................... 300
    Electric car running on US grid
    electricity....................................6500

    A joule is a measure of heat. It takes some heat to refine and process various fuels. Corn ethanol can be seen as a boondoggle as mentioned above. It can also be seen that only the top three production methods are economically and ecologically viable.

    On top of the evidence that corn ethanol is not an economically practical fuel, the stuff messes up some engines and certain engine system parts. There are other ramifications too. Such as: diverting crop production which can ultimately cause grocery and meat price increases
     
  3. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    I have a buddy that is a power generation engineer and he worked on some stuff on paper for someone with the big picture of emissions.
    He said the only way it can be less polluting and this will only work in rural areas is the ethanol is created locally and you fill up locally which removes the transport, and thats at 100% ethanol so no crude involved.
     
  4. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    I wonder if the USA is spending a billion dollars a day on crude to refine and run transport and tractors to grow the corn to make ethanol to then basically ship back to the coast to run the cars in the cities?
     
  5. tom28571
    Joined: Dec 2001
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    Location: Oriental, NC

    tom28571 Senior Member

    These numbers only further highlight the stupidity of high tariffs placed on imported ethanol from Brazilian sugar cane to favor US produced corn ethanol. With sugarcane, you start with sugar and convert to ethanol. With corn you get starch which can, with lots of energy input, be converted to sugar and then to ethanol. These equations are not complicated and only lots of political lobby support make the corn method work at all. From my house and daily drives, I see many thousands of acres of corn which would be some other crop except for the subsidies supported by your taxes.
     
  6. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Senate bill introduced to kill corn-ethanol mandate

    U.S. Sens. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., and Pat Toomey, R-Pa., introduced the Corn Ethanol Mandate Elimination Act of 2015, which would eliminate only the corn ethanol mandate portion of the Renewable Fuel Standard.

    Although the bill, which was introduced Thursday, does not specifically cap E10, which the marine industry supports, passage would gut the main driver of higher ethanol — corn.

    The National Marine Manufacturers Association applauds the bipartisan move by Toomey and Feinstein as they work to address the Renewable Fuel Standard.
    “The RFS is a broken law, which sets unrealistic fuel mandates and requires a long-term fix from Congress,” the NMMA said in a statement.

    http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/2015/03/house-bill-introduced-kill-corn-ethanol-mandate/


    It will be interesting to see how our politicians handle this situation. I'd be willing to bet the American public will not be considered primary above those wishes of the special interest of ethanol 'investors'
     
  7. sdowney717
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Location: Newport News VA

    sdowney717 Senior Member

    I think my old Poulan chainsaw is having trouble on the new gas.
    I recently got it out after it sat for 10 years.
    Started up fine.
    I sharpened chain and cut some wood for about a week, started ok. Then I let it sit for a week, it had trouble starting, sawed some wood.
    Then I let it sit for two weeks, I could barely get it started. Only way to start it was remove air filter and put gas into carb.
    It ran but not very well, refused to idle. Messed around enriching mixture screws, got it to run long enough to cut some wood.
    I think the carb is getting clogged up or something. It always ran well on the old gas.
    So likely had less then 2 hours run time after it sat till when it is dying.

    I wonder if I buy some fuel system cleaner will it clean it up?
     
  8. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
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    Location: North of Cuba

    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    Thank God someone in Washington is finally beginning to come to their senses!
     
  9. sdowney717
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Location: Newport News VA

    sdowney717 Senior Member

    I have taken to stuffing some paper towel wad into the fuel tank vent on the boat. I figure it will slow down on the vapor evaporation from the tank. Plus I add marine stabil, AND I don't keep much gas in the tank. I think right now is maybe 30 gallons in one tank of 150 gallon size.

    I also carry a 5 gallon can with me just in case, and I have a hose on the fuel manifold valves, I can put the hose directly into the plastic jug and bypass the tank IF something weird happens.

    The other tank I cleaned and pumped out and just don't use it.

    Years ago I would keep a lot more gas in the tanks, today you can not do that seeing how awful our gas is.

    I also do not fill up at marina, if I can help it, I figure the gas they have is old.
    I have plenty of old gas cans, about six 5 gallon cans, 4 2.5 gallon cans and they work fine to put gas in the boat. It is cheaper and I think better gas than the marina has. I got myself a gigantic funnel and put a towel around the fuel fill.
     
  10. Rurudyne
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    Rurudyne Senior Member

    Congress: one of many reasons why tarring and feathering politicians should be an annual event.
     
  11. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    The purpose of our government is not to serve the population, but to guarantee the monopoly of the largest corporations. Since large corporate farming monopolies will lose money if this dishonest ethanol fuel blend regulation is removed, I would not hold my breath waiting for it to end.

    You have elected politicians that do not represent you, but large corporate monied interests.
     
  12. messabout
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Location: Lakeland Fl USA

    messabout Senior Member

    Petros; At the risk of derailing a perfectly good thread..........I agree. We have way too many muttonheads like the Inhofes and his ilk, and way too few polite, but impressively informed firebrands like E. Warren.

    Words like polite and firebrand may constitute an oxymoron but it works for Ms Warren.
     
  13. upchurchmr
    Joined: Feb 2011
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    Location: Ft. Worth, Tx, USA

    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Sdowney,

    The problem is the alcohol in the gas, which breaks loose any old deposits from old gas.
    No - fuel system cleaner will not normally clean it up cause you have deposits blocking your idle jet.

    You have to take the carb apart and clean out all the jets or it will never run right.
    If you continue to use fuel with alcohol it will continue cleaning out your deposits until it is all clean, which means you might need to clean the carb again.

    If you were talking an older mower or weed eater I would suggest buying a new carb, many are so cheap it is just easier and worth it. I don't know about a boat motor carb.

    Additionally old fuel lines will get broken down and you will get leaks in the future. You need to find alcohol resistant fuel line to do a real fix

    I had the same problem on a motorcycle, and the mechanic said that was 60% of his business a couple of years ago.
     
  14. Rurudyne
    Joined: Mar 2014
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    Location: North Texas

    Rurudyne Senior Member

    I still think we could get Big Oil and Big Chicken behind tarring and feathering. :)
     

  15. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    THe Big BS that sold the public on poisoning fuel was "Clean Air", not bio fuel

    The claim was ethanol would help with air pollution , and the amounts required would be set by our buroRats by Zip code.

    Which is one reason fuel can cost more or less just across the street.

    The bio fuel con came after farmers saw corn prices soar , and they wanted their cash pile to be forever .

    Getting the air police and hordes of buroRats out of the ruling for profit business would help every country on this planet.

    WE all EAT!
     
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