New Gas,...BIG problems

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by brian eiland, Jun 14, 2014.

  1. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    A friend recently sent this video to me....eye opener if its all true :eek:

    Don't use NEW GAS COMING TO STATIONS

    While this gas is currently sold in only a few states, it's important to know
    the harm it can do IF you are traveling through states & are faced with the
    option to buy it. This short video could save your car from damage and void your warranty! Please watch & pass along.

    Warning Not to Use E15 Gas in Your Car: FOX Business - YouTube
     
  2. NavalSArtichoke
    Joined: Oct 2013
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    NavalSArtichoke Senior Member

    Any gasohol blend is already deadly to 2-cycle engines out there, for things like lawn mowers, blowers, chain saws, etc. If you own any older cars with gasoline engines, even E-10 can mess you up. Like a lot of government mandates, you have to protect yourself from getting screwed. You can find places where gasoline with no alcohol is still sold, but in certain states, you may have few, if any options.
     
  3. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Cars built after 2007 are e15 compliant. Anything seen on any Fox news broadcast should be severely questioned, as this isn't really a news organizational, but a self-serving scandal rag, much like the tabloids seen in the checkout line at your local grocery store.

    Most small engines built after 2010 are e15 compliant too, though some, particularly Chinese and Indian built engines might have non-compliant fuel lines, O rings, seals and gaskets. This said, there are many reasons to worry about e15, but any good fuel stabilizer will solve most of the issues, as well as reasonable maintenance.

    Don't leave fuel in the tank or bowl for long periods, as it'll varnish up very quickly and can clog and/or eat non-compliant lines, etc. 2 strokes are vulnerable to the mix, so adjust mixture settings and make sure the cooling system is in good shape. Water accumulation and corrosion from this fuel mix are the biggest issues, assuming you "park" your engines appropriately.

    The alcohol used in e15 is an option at most pumps and it's added at the pump, not supplied from separate underground tanks. So, the obvious choice is to push the appropriate button when fueling up, again as e15 is an option (currently). All the major manufactures have indicated compliance with e15 implementation and given the issues that cropped up with e10, they'll likely stand behind the issues with e15 as well.

    Fueling choices and routine maintenance and upkeep will prevent most of the problems associated with this new fuel mix. If you own older engines, you should already be aware of fuel requirement needs and have been buying leaded fuel or adding stuff to your non-lead formulations.

    Look all the engine builders knew this was coming, so they took steps to compliance. The US market is the one they want and e15 is part of the requirement, so they've addressed it. I have several older engines, some require real leaded fuel, which is also available, though much less convenient to find. My other older engines run just fine on treated fuels, so lets not blow this way out or proportion. I've learned this lesson the hard way and now have alcohol compliant seals, lines and gaskets on most of my stuff. Yeah, it sucks to have to rebuild carbs and fuel systems, just to make fueling more convenient, but this also isn't something new. How many here are old enough to have had to install hardened valve seats, to make their older engines compliant with unleaded fuels?
     
  4. upchurchmr
    Joined: Feb 2011
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    I have a continuing problem with fuel lines on a weedeater - 2 stroke.
    Upon going back to the dealer they very clearly told me that they cannot get fuel line which is E10 compliant. Too small a market is what they were told for the small sized line used. It leaks from the tank joint once a year and I go get some more.
     
  5. tom28571
    Joined: Dec 2001
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    tom28571 Senior Member

    No doubt this is all true Paul, but:
    I have three vehicles, all are pre 2004. Four running outboards with the newest a 2000. Chainsaw, polesaw, weedwacker and pressure washer are all non compliant. Fuel tanks hoses, tubes and priming bulbs have failed due to ethanol. Only recently has non ethanol fuel been readily available locally. My costs have been time, effort, money and money lost. My county is largely farming and this years crop is almost all corn.

    If there was a compelling reason to use more than the minimum ethanol needed for ecological purposes, I would not mind but I do object to subsidizing the farm lobby (dedicated watchers of Fox news) for no good purpose. If it were that ethanol was really needed in our fuel and we did not have a large tariff on Brazilian ethanol, that would also make it more acceptable. The same people pushing ethanol are usually pushing fracking, export of wood chips and fighting permits for wind and solar farms.
     
  6. messabout
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    messabout Senior Member

    Some of this is ******** hype. My 2004 Honda car has no observable problem with E10. Nor does my pressure washer, lawn mower, or weedeater. The weedeater is a two stroke that does not seem to mind the E10. My little 2.2 HP Tohatsu two sroker does not seem to mind either. The Tohatsu has a Mikuni carburetor which will varnish up seriously if I leave fuel in it for more than a few weeks, so I do not let that happen.

    The real deal is that fuel mileage is compromised by the blend. Ethanol is only about 60% as thermodynamicly efficient as gasoline. At 10% alky, 90% gasoline, the loss is not really serious but it is measurable.

    I have built race engines for many moons. Many of them were 100% methanol/nitromethane fueled. To be sure, fuel lines, O-ring, elastomer diaphragms, had to be alcohol resistant. Not only that but corrosion in aluminum and brass parts such as carburetors and throttle bodies is a problem. If that is not enough, alcohols are hygroscopic which means that they capture water which is bad news for fuel systems like carbs and injectors.

    With all that, it is unlikely that 10% ethanol is seriously injurious. Increased to 15% the limit of normal acceptability is being more closely approached.
     
  7. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Petros Senior Member

    I drive an old toyota, and it runs on E10 but it does not get as good ecomony as it does when I can buy ethanol free gasoline, and it runs smoother on pure gasoline.

    It has done damage to my small engines (generator, chainsaws, etc.) I converted my generator to run on propane since our rural home has a 500 propane tank anyway, and the propane is only about $1.88 a gallon (in fact that alone makes me want to covert all our cars run on propane too).

    The small engines will run on it, even on pure alcohol, but you have to drain and flush out the fuel from the carburetor and fuel tank when you are done, or it will corrode and eat everything away. this is a major nuisance.

    This ethanol binge is dishonest, it not only drives up all food costs, but drives up fuel costs since ethanol takes more resources to make than gasoline. And it causes more pollution. it was lobbied for by corn farmers so they can get rich, not to save the air or make better fuel. using farm land to make fuel is a big environmental and policy mistake, complexly dishonest.

    we have crooks in government if you have not noticed.
     
  8. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Indeed 15% is seemingly a crossed line, in regard to dramatic corrosion and moisture accumulation issues. This said, if you have to leave fuel in a tank, put a stabilizer in it. If you have to leave fuel in a fuel system, the same applies.

    Tom I too have several pre-compliant engines and equipment, but I've made the changes necessary, now have no issues. I rebuilt my garden tractor carb twice, before I figured this out and when my chainsaw leaked like a bottomless bucket, I replaced the lines (2004) and no problem since. Anyone that's been to my property knows how much I need a chainsaw.

    I've had to richen up (jetting mostly) each engine to over come the alcohol additives. If you're really anal, timing should also be adjusted. E10 seems fairly reasonable, if you keep the fuel stabilized or drained. E15 does warrant extra measures.
     
  9. CDK
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    CDK retired engineer

    Rum, Bourbon, Gin and Vodka all contain at least 40% ethanol, yet I've never heard anyone complain about his hoses or gaskets, just about the headaches in the morning.
    The cap on a liquor bottle has a cork seal that is totally reliable, even after years of storage, the cap itself is soft aluminum and never shows signs of corrosion.

    So I do not quite understand the problem. I know a guy who fueled his vintage Citroen with 100% methanol because he had an uncle who owned a yeast factory, so he had unlimited supply and there was no tax on it. To compensate for the lower efficiency he installed a turbo charger and increased the compression. That was in the 70's of the previous century.....
     
  10. NavalSArtichoke
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    NavalSArtichoke Senior Member

    I've heard that some people drink straight out of the bottle to avoid having problems with hoses and gaskets.
     
  11. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    I started to buy a used 42' CC motor yacht that had been setting for just over a year with a few $1000K of fuel in it. Engines would not start !! Entire fuel system had to be emptied and refuel with new fuel. Then the carbs needed to be rebuilt.

    Pretty expensive operation that would not have occurred in older days when we had relatively stable gasoline.

    I also have an older van that I keep in reserve should I need a good towing vehicle. Last time I tried restarting this vehicle it would not start prior to my emptying vast amounts of fuel conditioner into it, and some 'fresh' gas, and some ether to get it started,...and a new battery. In the old days I could leave a car set for a year while I was over seas, come back and get it running very easily.

    We are being hood-winked on this ethanol crap. I believe it was under the Bush admin that we got sold this bill of goods that this was a good measure to help us toward fuel independence by 'growing a portion of our fuel supply'. What bull ! We now have a surplus of natural gas (great for running vehicles, and cleaner also, and cheaper), yet they want to frac this stuff and send it overseas :mad: ,....rather than using it for domestic purposes :confused:

    Lastly look at the efficiencies of producing ethanol from corn verses from sugar cane or switch grass, etc
    http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe70s/crops_06.html

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/grass-makes-better-ethanol-than-corn/

    ....and this is all part of 'our comprehensive energy plan of the USA'. What total bull.
     
  12. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Got this mail from Greenpeace yesterday:
     
  13. upchurchmr
    Joined: Feb 2011
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    That is a hell of a quote.
    Is there any truth to it?

    Natural gas is suppose to be the savior compared to coal and even gasoline.

    What makes the whole process so dirty?
    Or is this just another extremest claim?

    The one item I can identify is the shipping contribution - supposedly the "bunker oil" used is very dirty to burn. Anyone have any data on how it compares to rail cars (per mile/ ton)?

    Or are they just talking about the amount of energy from the natural gas shipped being greater than the amount of coal in 7 power plants?
     
  14. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    I assume this is the quote you are asking about?
    I'm just assuming that it means as it reads,...the sum of these processes?



    There are arguments on both sides. Here are three against:
    http://www.dangersoffracking.com/
    http://www.gaslandthemovie.com/whats-fracking

    http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/06/fracking-in-pennsylvania-201006




    I don't think the transportation portion is that much more of a contribution by the method used to transport compared to the volume transported (including the product and the tremendous amount of water that needs to be brought in and taken out)
     

  15. kapnD
    Joined: Jan 2003
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    kapnD Senior Member

    I agree that the whole ethanol requirement thing is more the product of big business and government sleeping in the same bed than the wishes of the EPA, or, always last on the list, the desires of the taxpayers, who ultimately foot the bill for such BS.
    My 96 toyota runs poorly and gets about 15% poorer gas mileage on 10% ethanol, so I spend the bucks to buy non-ethanol and the tradeoff nets about the same in terms of dollars/mile.
    The idle air control gums up in about 6000 miles on the 10%, and is a real pain to cleanup.
    There is talk here about outlawing the ethanol free option...
    Tom, 1994!!! You need to re-examine your sense of responsibility, you are not being a good American consumer! Bust out that credit card and buy some new stuff with money that doesn't exist! That's what America is built on.
     
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