NEW FOIL fitted to wild oats xi for the Sydney Hobart Race 2013

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by oceancruiser, Sep 22, 2013.

  1. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  3. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

  4. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Where are the hydraulics in an AC boat ?

    The diagrams I saw showed all rope operation of the centreboards.
     
  5. tspeer
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    tspeer Senior Member

    It depends on the boat. The daggerboards on 17 were raised and lowered by lines connected to hydraulic cylinders. Hydraulic control was also used for daggerboard cant, daggerboard rake, wing camber, and wing twist. Furling was hydraulic. Winches were mechanical, however. Hydraulics were also used for several functions related to the sails. Basically everything except the sheets themselves.

    The grinding pedestals could be switched between powering the winches and powering hydraulic pumps.

    Think of all the secondary control lines on a typical sailboat. On a boat the size of an AC72, those are all done with hydraulics.
     
  6. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Ahh, fascinating.

    I got a kick from listening to the 'sproing' noises from the 'ropes' as the AC foilers hardened up on their beats, and on their gybes.

    It felt like they were 'real' sailing boats.

    Another illusion shattered.

    How much grinding would you have to do to move a canting keel with xx tonnes of lead on it ??
     
  7. Munter
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    Munter Amateur

    Well, if you make a bunch of assumptions to fill in the gaps in the question like:
    1.5m lift of COG (say 45 degree cant on a 3m deep keel)
    3000kg effective mass of keel (allowing for bouyancy)
    20% friction factor
    Grinder can put out 200W (a bit high?)

    I reckon it will take 1 man ~264,000 seconds or 6 men ~44,000 seconds. This is obviously based on a perilous number of assumptions. It sounds like taking would have to be rather slow!
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
  8. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    So, 73 hours or 12 hours is a possible estimate

    PDW - I think they will keep their diesels.
     
  9. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    Which is why it's a power assisted sailing vessel not a sailboat and should not be compared with a sailboat.

    Why don't we allow every boat in the Sydney-Hobart race a diesel allowance to use as they please? Some can use it to power their hydraulics, others can run their propulsion engine if they so choose. Who could possibly object to that?

    PDW
     
  10. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    What's not "real sailing" about using human-powered hydraulics instead of human-powered ropes?

    Even back in IOR days we had lots of human-powered hydraulics; vang, backstay, and forestay. We used to pump one tonner rigs backwards and forwards about 3'. The ORMA 60s cant the rig with human power (or wind power, preferably) and they are certainly sailing boats.
     
  11. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    I can tell you in two words - self servicing.

    The big appeal of 'mano el mano' real sailing is the fact that you can service, cobble together, repair, configure and generally wrestle the craft with you bare hands. I can build new pulleys, blocks and fittings myself, and rope can be reconfigured, replaced and repaired myself.

    With hydraulics - you are at the mercy of complex technical stuff like O rings, and even worse - the repairmans bill.

    My personal view of sailing and boats in general is the 'man against nature' ingenuity, not the 'war of the wallets'

    Call it inverse snobbery, or puritan parsimony - I cant see the virtue in spending more than absolutely necessary to just 'play' on the water.
     
  12. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    So.... you're not going to have any synthetic running rigging, and not have any metal *or* synthetic standing rigging, then....?

    I don't, personally, have a problem with hydraulics powered by on-board muscle power. I have a big problem with allowing an engine to be run 24/7 to power hydraulics and still call the thing a sailboat. If it can't sail without an engine running, it shouldn't be in a class with boats that can.

    Alternatively, as I said, give everyone an allowance of diesel to use as they see fit. That would be really funny, seeing some sailboat without powered hydraulics turn on the motor and drive straight past WOXI coming up Storm Bay in a dead calm....

    PDW
     
  13. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    I can tie a knot in synthetic rope, and drill and shape metal, like the 'average' handy skipper.

    Designing, installing, maintaining hydraulics is just complicating a 'sport', in my mind.

    New technology can be cheaper than old. eg. Plywood and Epoxy is cheaper over its lifetime, as well as initially, than traditionally built wooden boats.

    I am in favour of keeping sailing as a sport as accessible to as many as possible.
     
  14. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Dont even mention hydraulics.

    I had a seal failure on sept 11 while on delivery and lost 400 litres of shell tellus 32 before I could reach a facility were I could replace the 9 euro seal.

    I dream of boats will no hydraulics...................................
     

  15. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    Hahahaha. Sorry, I do feel your pain. It's things like that which decided me not to fit motor driven hydraulics to my anchor winch, even though I have all the parts needed and know how to do it.

    The thought of a ruptured hose in the bilges dumping hydraulic oil everywhere just makes me shudder.

    I may fit a small electric hydraulic power pack to the foredeck though. Mainly because I was given one.... but probably not. I'd rather fit a 3 phase TEFC motor with planetary gearbox, which I also have sitting about.

    PDW
     
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