New Figaro 3 launch and first sail

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Dolfiman, Sep 3, 2017.

  1. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,186
    Likes: 59, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    That will be interesting. A quick look at OSIRIS HN tables shows the F2 has a HN of 29.5, equating to 628 seconds per mile on HN. That seems to indicate that if the F3 is 15% faster it would have a 534, putting it in the 40 group and considerably quicker than a Farr 40 OD or a Pogo 40.
     
  2. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 15,642
    Likes: 217, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Figaro 3"The Baby Giraffe" is First to Finish 2018 Pacific Cup:
    Pressure Drop - The Baby Giraffe Takes The 1st To Finish Honors! http://www.pressure-drop.us/forums/content.php?8483-The-Baby-Giraffe-Takes-The-1st-To-Finish-Honors!
    And as I understand it the boat raced as "experimental" and not in any other class. Further, as far as I know, this was her first long ocean race in difficult conditions and she was FIRST to Finish!!
    From page 1, post 11 from Dolfiman:
    "Lauriot-Prevost can record the effect with impressive numbers. At 15 knots, the foil produces a considerable vertical lift of around 400 daN, thus the equivalent of a half ton. As the weight of the Figaro 3 compared with the previous one (Figaro 2) is reduced by 200 kg and that the missing water-ballast represents 270 kg, the boat displacement will be reduced by a total of 900 kg less - about a third of the total weight. An enormous effect that directly affects the speed potential and explains the pivoting of Beneteau to the airfoil technology"
     
  3. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,186
    Likes: 59, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    She was first to finish because she got up to FOUR DAYS headstart on other boats. Do you really, seriously, claim that getting a four day headstart is irrelevant?

    The boat was listed in DH2 group in the list of entries (2018 Entries https://pacificcup.org/18/entries). She was not included in the official results in the same way as other boats because the class does not have an official PHRF rating, but she still had the (EDIT - second) slowest corrected time and she is included in the class listings in corrected time order.

    The fact remains that if people make a big deal about some foilers beating other boats on corrected time, they cannot ignore it when a foiler gets beaten by all the other boats in its group on corrected time. And if people are going to make a big deal about a foiler getting home first because it has a headstart, then they must make a big deal when a foiler (or canter or whatever) gets beaten by other boats that had a headstart.

    Look here - a canter finishes second last. Audi Centre Sydney Winter Series 2018 - A-G - Race 9 Results http://cyca.com.au/results/2018_winter/ACS_A_G/09RGrp8.htm Does that mean you are going to say it's a slow boat, because you are going to ignore that it gave the rest of the fleet a headstart? There is no logical way that you can ignore the fact that one boat wins because it gets a headstart and then ignore that another boat lost because it gave other yachts a headstart. Either it matters when one boat gives another a headstart, or it doesn't.
     
  4. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,186
    Likes: 59, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    Since people appear to agree that whether or not a boat gets a head start is irrelevant, from now on we may as well make a big deal about it every time a canter or foiler is beaten by a boat that starts a few minutes, hours or days ahead.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
  5. Dolfiman
    Joined: Aug 2017
    Posts: 596
    Likes: 254, Points: 63
    Location: NICE (France)

    Dolfiman Senior Member

    I have translate this interview of Figaro 3 naval architect Vincent Lauriot Prévost, dated january 2018 and available thanks to Voiles et voiliers web site :

    "Introduction : The Figaro 3 and its astonishing foils have not finished making much ink. Small update with Vincent Lauriot Prévost, the architect, who gives us some tracks on the use of these funny appendages.

    Voilesetvoiliers.com: It seems that these foils only work at a certain speed and therefore they are only a brake in light winds. Is it wrong?

    Vincent Lauriot Prévost: What are the hydrodynamic brakes on a sailing boat? There is the hull, the keel, the foils and the rudders. Upwind, the drag is all the more important as the boat drifts and we sail like a crab. What we want is to load the asymmetrical profile of the foil to reduce the drift angle and unload keel and hull. When we are not in high speeds, especially upwind - boats of this type are regularly between 5 and 7 knots - we want to load the foil to drift less. On the other hand, downwind, there is a desire to reduce the rake angle to the maximum to reduce the drag, the anti-drift force in this case being reduced or zero. As soon as you are sailing at higher speeds where you need a righting moment, the foil, inclined at 45 degrees with the heel, generates both a horizontal anti-drift force and a vertical force that tends to relieve the boat and increase the righting moment. This concept of foils is not necessarily adapted to larger and faster boats: their performance is a function of the anti-drift force generated by the sail plan of the boat and it is limited to the maximum righting moment. Once 100% of the anti-drift force is on the foil, the vertical force peaks at the value of the vertical component. This explains why we have a very balanced boat with a very neutral helm. In these conditions the rudder does not take its share of the anti-drifting force to correct the balance and leaves to the foil the major part of this anti-drifting force. We do not want the boat to be too « weather helm » (my translation of « ardent » in french) because then we take force on the rudder and discharge the foil.

    Voilesetvoiliers.com: That is to say?

    V. L. P.: The asymmetrical profile that takes the drifting force will give the righting moment and lighten the boat. The more this lateral force increases, the more the foil is loaded and the foil lifts vertically as well. This phenomenon had already been observed on ORMA trimarans with foils inclined at 45 degrees. The more one loaded the central daggerboard by turning the flap, the more the float was in the water. As soon as we put the flap in the axis, we transferred the load on the foil and the float lifted. What we are trying to do with this type of foil is not to fly completely but to equip the boat with an effective foil to take the anti-drift component when it is needed and beneficial for the power and a lightened configuration.

    Voilesetvoiliers.com: How to evaluate the expected gain?

    V. L. P.: The Figaro 3 weighs 200 kg less than the Figaro 2, at equal moment without the foils, we gain 250 kg of ballast for the same power as the Figaro 2 ballast, and at about 14 knots speed we regain between 400 and 500 kg of vertical thrust. We will sail 800 kg lighter at 14 knots, so 30% lighter and 15% stiffer (in RM). This type of foil is a real turbo that is not there to look pretty. But the desire for polyvalence and the specifications of the class will not make a flying boat itself.

    Voilesetvoiliers.com: The keel of Figaro 3 has a very short chord, without the foil it would drift on the end of a tack ?

    V. L. P. : That's right, the point is that when you do not use the foil for its power, you use it for something else. This foil allows us to have a keel of smaller surface, more elongation and less drag, and an helm balance as neutral as possible so that the rudder does not contribute to the antidrift. Designers of some of the old America's Cup boats, including the AC5s (?) which were limited in keel surface, had chosen to design « weather helm » boats to sollicitate large, very deep, very efficient, large-area rudder blades, permanently at eight or ten degrees of angle in order to compensate the lack of effectiveness of the keel. This is not what we are looking for.

    Voilesetvoiliers.com: Have you been able to try the foils in strong winds?

    V. L. P. : I had the chance to test it with Yoann (Richomme) and Adrien (Hardy) with 23-25 knots of wind at Les Sables-d'Olonne in a configuration without foil on one side and with foil on the other side. We had simply removed the foil and plugged the opening with adhesive. The difference in behavior was rather striking. For example, we were under spinnaker and it was very difficult to attack without foil. We went “in excessive heel angle” (my translation of “aller au tas”) three or four times and it was normal: we were overcanvassed. With the foil, the presence of it has allowed us to go up to 130-135 degrees of wind (true wind angle twa) under spinnaker, we went straight and we could go more up to the wind without apprehension. Conclusion of the day: the boat with foil, thanks to its stability of route and the reduction of the heeling angle, tolerated a bigger spinnaker and less twa.

    Voilesetvoiliers.com: The instructions for this new boat will be acquired after one season? Do you have already any advice?

    V. L. P.: We can not say exactly what is going to be the best in terms of tuning, but we can say the paths to which we must look. It will be very interesting to be able to adjust the rake of the foil with a hoist directly from the cockpit, there will be plenty of configurations to test. This is what interests a sailor like Loïck Peyron, for example, who says that with his experience, he will quickly be at the level. I think there will be a fairly rigorous learning phase. Before, it was water ballast or not ballast and mat quest. There, there will be the foil with the ability to deploy it more or less and to angulate it more or less.

    Voilesetvoiliers.com: The foils can be used without being fully deployed ?

    V. L. P.: Upwind in light winds, depending on the incidence they will have with the boat's wave, they may be more efficient halfway out to have the best angle of incidence with regard to the real flow and have better efficiency, I'm not sure we can only consider the on / off mode. I think there may be situations where it's going to be playing on the balance at the helm and its performance depending on the rake range. I think we'll finish on a rake range around -3 ° to + 7 °, or -2 ° to + 8 °. The idea is to keep a range large enough so that to prevent optimization of the adjustment stops. "

    Ref : Du bon usage des foils http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/course-regate/du-bon-usage-des-foils/

    Also, thanks to F. Chevalier Taglang, this very interesting article including the linesplan of the F3 VPLP design :
    "A history of the Figaro class yacht designs Single-handed racing in France 1966–2017"
    Chevalier Taglang: the FIGARO single-handed Jubilee 1966-2017 http://chevaliertaglang.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-figaro-single-handed-jubilee-1966.html
     
    Doug Lord likes this.
  6. OzFred
    Joined: Nov 2015
    Posts: 342
    Likes: 24, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 16
    Location: Earth

    OzFred Senior Member

    I can understand your confusion—how could the boat finish first yet be beaten by almost a day on both elapsed and corrected time by a Melges 32 (per the results)?

    But the answer has been given to you by CT249: A Fond Le Girafon finished first is because it had a considerable head start on boats of similar peformance.
     
  7. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 15,642
    Likes: 217, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Figaro 3 first to finish pac cup 7-18.jpg
    IMAGE by Ronnie Simpson Pacific Cup Media


    Figaro 3 was first to finish in her first long ocean race in a great triumph for her foil assist design!!

    From "Pressure Drop" and Pacific Cup Media:
    The fleet’s only other Friday finisher was Charles Devanneaux’ Beneteau Figaro 3 A Fond le Girafon, who finished just after 1 pm local time to become the first boat over the finish line. The two Frenchman, including co-skipper Matthieu Damerval, sailed into Kaneohe with an elapsed time of 11 days 4 hours 24 minutes. Having led the first wave of starters from the get-go, the all new foil-assisted monohull blazed a fast path to Kaneohe to make history in this great race. On the 20th edition of the Pac Cup, the first ‘foiling’ boat in the race’s history led wire-to-wire and was first over the line. It may not mean much in the overall rankings, owing to the boat’s ‘experimental’ rating, but when looking back at this year’s race, A Fond le Girafon surely won’t be forgotten anytime soon. Sailing to raise funds and awareness for the ALS disease, skipper Charles Devanneaux has now completed four Pacific Cups, and we look forward to greeting him upon arrival of his fifth. Bravo boys! Superbe! by Ronnie Simpson Pacific Cup Media

    Note about the skipper:
    Figaro Legs OutDH2 Mount Gay Rum division got off the line third and was all the spectacle that it been made up to be. In addition to another very healthy and competitive doublehanded division with quality entrants, the race saw history made when Charles Devanneaus’s all-new Beneteau Figaro 3 A Fond le Girafon crossed the starting line and became the first boat equipped with foils to ever begin a Pacific Cup. While the throngs of viewers from the shore, the race deck and other boats were focused on the distinctive orange foils emanating from A Fond le Girafon’s hull, we got the sense that the skipper was living a very special and memorable moment. Sailing in his 4th doublehanded Pac Cup, Devanneaux is sailing in this year’s race to raise money and awareness for the ALS community. Also known as Lou Gehrig’s disease, Devanneaux’s former Pacific Cup co-skipper Gilles Galerne passed away from the disease, and this race is being sailed in his honor, and to raise funds and awareness for the cause.

    Latest Standings https://pacificcup.org/18/latest-standings
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
  8. Dolfiman
    Joined: Aug 2017
    Posts: 596
    Likes: 254, Points: 63
    Location: NICE (France)

    Dolfiman Senior Member

    I agree that this honor line celebration, by the race organisers themselves, was a bit misleading for the ones not familiar with the various head starts for this race, and likely due to the touch of originality brings by this boat. That does not prevent to continue understand and evaluate the formula accurately and quantitatively as much as possible.
     
  9. Dolfiman
    Joined: Aug 2017
    Posts: 596
    Likes: 254, Points: 63
    Location: NICE (France)

    Dolfiman Senior Member

    The first comments from skippers & crew of "A fond Le Girafon " and "Prospector" :
     
    Doug Lord likes this.
  10. OzFred
    Joined: Nov 2015
    Posts: 342
    Likes: 24, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 16
    Location: Earth

    OzFred Senior Member

    Of course I hope they continue to evaluate and develop the boat. But crowing about it being "first to finish" (which is very different to finishing first) is idiotic, especially when it was soundly beaten on both elapsed and corrected time by a Melges 32, a 13 year old non–foiling design.

    I'm not saying you have done that, but others here are.
     
  11. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,186
    Likes: 59, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    Yes, for some of us the interest is in evaluating and understanding the design aspects, but that gets submerged under the hype by people who are too narrow-minded and stupid to understand that finishing first is no big deal when you start days ahead of the fast boats. As Fred says, this is not directed at you.

    This was a good forum until monomaniacs with endless self-promotional posts drove many people away.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
  12. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 15,642
    Likes: 217, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Pacific Cup Summary. Figaro 3 @ 2:30, 4:30, 4:46, 5:11, and 5:54 in.....
     
  13. Dolfiman
    Joined: Aug 2017
    Posts: 596
    Likes: 254, Points: 63
    Location: NICE (France)

    Dolfiman Senior Member

    During the last Pacific Cup, the prototype Beneteau Figaro 3, a foil asssit monohull dedicated to short-handed races (here with 2 crew), did the course in 11,18 days (elapsed time) and the first Melges 32, a very similar monohull with same lenght and 8 crew , starting 4 days after the Figaro 3, did the course in 10,88 days (elapsed time). So a difference in speed of less than 3 % + race conditions with various start days making a comparison of the boats respective speed potential quite hazardous.

    So I propose you this study, here attached, of a numerical boat named F3, free interpretation inspired by the Beneteau Figaro 3, its VPP performance upwind and downwind (on calm water) with 2 crew sit windward, and comparison with the ones of :
    • F3 wf : i.e. F3 without foils and with 2 crew sit windward. The weight of the foils + the corresponding hull reinforcements can be estimated to ~ 120 kg, and for the F3 wf this weight is put as extra ballast in the keel bulb.
    • M32 8 crew (free interpretation inspired by the Melges 32) with 8 crew (640 kg) sit windward
    • M32 2 crew with 2 crew (160 kg) sit windward

    The F3 boat in few figures : Loa : 9,75 m ; B : 3,47 m ; Draft : 2,50 m ; Displacement (light weight) : 2902 kg ; Ballast : 993 kg ; Effective Lwl for the simulation : 9,50 m
    F3 2 crew : 2 crew sit windward = 160 kg >>> Displacement : 3062 kg inc. Ballast 993 kg
    F3 wf 2 crew without foils : 120 kg extra ballast >>> Displacement : 3062 kg inc. Ballast 1113 kg

    The M32 boat in few figures : Loa : 9,70 m ; B : 3,00 m ; Draft : 2,13 m ; Displacement (light weight) : 1712 kg ; Ballast : 775 kg ; Effective Lwl for the simulation : 9,59 m
    M32 8 crew : 8 crew sit windward = 640 kg >>> Displacement : 2352 kg
    M32 2 crew : 2 crew sit windward = 160 kg >>> Displacement : 1872 kg

    Comparison F3 (with foils) / F3 wf (without foils)

    >>> Upwind (for twa 40° to 45°) : the speed is too low for the foil to provide a significant lift and so to influence the performance on calm water as well as the heel angle. At constant displacement, it is more efficient to have the saved 120 kg as extra ballast in the keel bulb. But to note that, beyond just the calm water performance, all Figaro 3 testers have mentioned the beneficial influence of the leeward foil to soften the boat's motion on waves and thus help maintain good speed.

    For the low speed range typical of such upwind sailing, the Lift /Drag ratio of the Hull (~ 35 to 70) remains a lot higher than the one of the Foil (~ 10 to 15). So a positive reward of the Foil use can rely only on the gain on RM (and a slight reduction of the Heeling arm) and as long as it cannot be reversed by the extra drag of the foil. These conditions are not fulfilled for boat speed less than 7 knots. The only noticeable influence is on the trim : the foil lift prevent the boat to go too much nose down.

    >>> Downwind (for twa 140°) : here the boat speed is sufficient for the foil to make the difference, both on speed, on heel angle and on trim angle, in accordance with the Figaro 3 design purpose. From 16 Knots wind speed, F3 shows a greater speed, up to 4 Knots more when around 26-28 knots wind speed : F3 ~ 17 knots / F3 wf ~ 13 Knots. F3 has a lower heel angle, mostly 6° less by medium to strong winds, for example 17° instead of 23° for 22 knots wind speed. Due to the foil position quite forward in the boat, its lift has a strong positive effect on the boat trim, preventing the nose-down trend when the boat heels by strong winds, and contributing to the triggering and the efficiency of the surf mode : F3 at 17 Knots can maintain a 0,5° nose-up trim when F3 wf at 13 Knots has a 1,5° nose-down trim which can be hazardous.

    At boat speed > 12 Knots, the Lift/Drag ratio of the Foil becomes higher than the « remaining » hull one, meaning that the foil can provide the double advantage of more RM and less drag. At boat speed 17 Knots, the Foil L/D is 8,2 while the « remaining » Hull L/D is 3,1.

    To note that from about this boat speed 12 Knots, it is worth to use the maximum foil lift coefficient available (i.e. the maximum before foil stalling), as the extra induced drag of the foil is over compensated by the above positive effects.

    To note also that the transversal component of the foil lift is so strong when downwind with winds that the boat is « pushed » windward and the keel wing lift should work reversely to maintain the balance of the transversal efforts (see the efforts distribution in the document). As the foil center of effort is higher than the one of the keel wing, this lead to less heeling arm.


    Comparison F3 (2 crew, with foils) / M32 (8 crew) and M32 (2 crew) :

    >>> Upwind (for twa 40° to 45°) : M32 8 crew is signficantly faster than the F3, the biggest difference is for wind speed around 8 Knots (6,6 Knots / 5,9 Knots, ~ + 12%) , the peak speed is 7 knots / 6,5 knots (~ + 7 %). The light weight of the M32 associated with 8 crew sit windward make the difference, as in other hand the F3 foil cannot provide sufficient lift.

    The importance of the crew sit windward in the performance of the M32 is highlighted by the comparison 8 crew / 2 crew : the 2 crew version is faster by light winds < 6 knots as expected, but then strongly disadvantaged by its lack of RM and the peak speed before the first reefing is 6,3 Knots, reached for wind speed 11 Knots. For wind speed 8 to 11 knots, the speeds of F3 (2 crew) and of M32 (2 crew) are similar, but with the advantage for F3 of 4° to 5° less heel angle. For wind speed over 11 knots, F3 shows a greater speed and a delayed first reefing.

    >>> Downwind (for twa 140°) :
    For light winds up to 9 Knots, boat speeds are roughly equivalent with a slight advantage for the M32 (2 crew).
    For medium, from 9 to 20 Knots wind speed, the M32 (8 crew) shows the greater speed, up to 1,3 knots more when 14 Knots wind : 10,9 knots / 9,6 Knots (so ~ + 13%)
    For strong winds > 20 Knots, F3 is faster than M32 (8 crew) needing a sail reduction, up to 2,2 Knots more when 28 Knots wind speed : 17,4 knots / 15,2 knots (so ~ - 13 %)

    So globally downwind, the M32 8 crew speed, compared to the F3 2 crew one, moves from +13% (for winds 10 to 20 Knots) to -13% (for winds > 20 Knots)

    F3 can (theoritically) sustain its nominal sail surface up to 28 Knots wind speed, M32 8 crew should reef from 19 Knots and M32 2 crew from 16 Knots.

    More details on the computations, assumptions and results in the document attached.
     

    Attached Files:

    Doug Lord likes this.
  14. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 15,642
    Likes: 217, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1362
    Location: Melbourne, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Launching the Formula Foil Ocean Racing Championships
    Launching the Formula Foil Ocean Racing Championships >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2018/09/12/launching-formula-foil-ocean-racing-championships/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Scuttlebutt%205165%20-%20September%2013%202018&utm_content=Scuttlebutt%205165%20-%20September%2013%202018+CID_73e9d550c158b5018745184de917b4a1&utm_source=Email%20Newsletter&utm_term=Launching%20the%20Formula%20Foil%20Ocean%20Racing%20Championships
    See Press Release by clicking on "Presentation-facts" at the bottom of the article.
    =========================================
    Excerpt:
    Inspired by the Figaro 3 design, British marketer Stuart Greenfield has hatched a plan for a new Formula Foil Ocean Racing Championships (FFORC) with the added incentive of £50,000 prize for the winner.

    “The launch if the new Beneteau Figaro 3 provides a unique opportunity for the FFORC to bring an exciting format to the UK offshore racing community… and hopefully internationally,” said Greenfield.

    “Ocean racing continues to grow in interest with the numbers of yachts competing on the increase. There is trend for smaller more exciting yachts with less crew doing more with the focus on adventure with the bonus of less time just sitting on the rail.”

    The plan is for a minimum of 10 teams, sailing 10 races, over 10,000nm with a total prize fund of £80,000. The championship will run from Spring 2020 until February 2021, and then yearly, with the winner to be declared in Antigua. The plan is to make available 10 boats for a fee to the first 10 teams entering, plus any team owning a one design Figaro 3 can enter as well.

    =======================

    Figaro 3.jpg
     

  15. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
    Posts: 1,186
    Likes: 59, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 215
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT249 Senior Member

    Is there any evidence for his claim that "“Ocean racing continues to grow in interest with the numbers of yachts competing on the increase"?

    Where he comes from, there seems to have been no real increase to judge from a quick look - for example the number of boats in the RORC IRC annual pointscore has gone from 436 in 2011 to 298 today. That is not an increase!

    Is there any evidence for the claim "There is trend for smaller more exciting yachts "? In 2011 the RORC had 120 entries in Class IV, whereas today there are 88. JOG Class VI had only 13 entries; years ago there would probably have been far more smaller boats. In Australia, the small offshore racing boat is basically extinct, and in the USA MORC died long ago. There may have been an increase in some places but I'd hazard a guess that it's in medium-sized (about 36ft) cruiser-racers. Certainly in England that seems to be overwhelmingly the case.

    I'm certainly not happy about the fall off in offshore racing and especially in smaller boats, but it is hard to see the growth he's talking about.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.