New Drive System for Pedal Boats - Feedback Needed!

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by pmdproject, May 18, 2010.

  1. pmdproject
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    pmdproject New Member

    Hi all,

    Thanks for some really interesting thoughts and ideas - I'll be certain to make sure that the designer sees this feedback.

    It's quite clear that there is an impressive level of expertise regarding pedal powered watercraft in this forum. I was wondering, however, if anyone had any particular experience in commercialising such technological innovations?

    It seems that whilst some innovations have achieved commercial success (Hobie Mirage being the example noted by our designers and coming up repeatedly in our survey), there are significant barriers to any particular invention becoming marketable. If anyone has ever attempted to take a similar technology to market, knows of any examples, or is simply knowledgable about the market for such products in their area, we'd love to hear from you: just send an email to curling88@gmail.com. As mentioned above, this is part of a business school project at the University of Cambridge, providing consultancy to a small engineering company that has developed this latest invention.

    Cheers,
    Richard

    I will also post this message on Rick Willoughby's Pedal Powered Boats thread, apologies in advance for the cross-posting!
     
  2. Jeremy Harris
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    Jeremy Harris Senior Member

    I'm pretty sure that the Hobie systems limited success has been very largely down to the fact that they were an established manufacturer, with a good track record and who already had a good marketing. distribution and after-sales support network.

    They also had access to enough development funding, on the back of their successful boat building business, to iron the bugs out and make their drive pretty robust.

    For the leisure market performance and efficiency probably isn't too big an issue. I would guess that the prime drivers are price and practicality, both on and off water. Ease of storage, transport and launching are probably at least as important to someone looking for a way to take to the water for fun as efficiency, in fact many may well be prepared to trade efficiency for ease of use.

    Finally, I mentioned before that boat buyers tend to be a bit conservative. This means that the market for something that looks unconventional may be limited. Hobie probably score here too, as their boat looks fairly conventional when in the water.

    Jeremy
     
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  3. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    I agree with much of what Jeremy says above. There are, however, a few exceptions to the process of attributing much of the success of the Mirage to Hobie's size and existing distribution channels.

    Since the beginning of the whole business of Hobie, it has always been a company known for its innovative design and execution. This began back in the 1950's with the surfboards being built by the founder, Hobart Alter, in Southern California. Hobie, as he is known, was one of the first to develop foam cored surfboards, developed the famous Hobie 14 and 16 sailing catamarans and brought a whole bag full of fresh ideas to watersports enthusiasts for several decades. You can read about the whole thing here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobart_Alter

    Hobie Alter is retired now and no longer with the company he founded, but the innovative essence of his vision is being carried-on by two very talented engineer/designers named Greg Ketterman and Jim Czarnowski, both of whom are deeply involved in human powered vessel (HPV) propulsion from the theoretical, as well as the practical points of view.

    When the Mirage first appeared on the scene as an HPV alternative to the paddle, Hobie did something that very powerfully slammed-home the concept of using the legs for drive, rather than the arms. They arranged a competitive pull-off between identical Sit-On-Top kayaks; one equipped with a Mirage and one with a standard double bladed paddle. The boats were tied together at the stern by a short rope and at a signal, they paddler and pdaler thrust as hard as they could. In very short order, the Mirage equipped boat simply pulled the paddler backwards.

    This same contest was performed at the next big trade show for outdoor sports. This time, the boats were two-seater versions of identical kayaks. The paddlers were Greg Barton, a two time Olympic gold medalist in flat water kayaking and Oscar Chalupsky, a multi-time, world champion offshore endurance paddler. They were pitted against Greg Ketterman, Hobie design engineer and his brother. Neither of the Ketterman's will make the claim of being world champion leg press, or bicycling heroes... they're just average outdoor enthusiasts when it comes to pedal power sports.

    The signal to start was given and the water churned like mad from both vessels. At first, the paddlers managed to hold their place, but within a minute, they were being pulled backwards across the water by the Mirage equipped boat. Clearly, the Mirage drive can generate some very serious power and it does so from the legs of two average guys. That demo was held in front of hundreds of outdoor retail store owners from around the world and very quickly, the buzz flashed through the watersports enthusiasts at the show. The Mirage was for real and it kicked butt.

    That was the most powerful demonstration of a previously unknown product I have ever seen in a sporting venue. As a designer of small craft, I immediately went home and started to cook-up designs specifically to make use of the Mirage drive for my homebuilder customers. You can see one the designs I created for the Mirage in these video clips.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/LunadaBay#p/a/u/2/42YYFVYU720
    http://www.youtube.com/user/LunadaBay#p/a/u/1/f1xa4ZG-5AM

    So, yes, the Mirage drive is incredibly innovative and very shrewdly marketed by Hobie, but it takes more to successfully complete the cycle of creating and presenting a great product and this is where all the points made by Jeremy ring powerfully true.
     
  4. pmdproject
    Joined: May 2010
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    pmdproject New Member

    Again - this continues to be useful stuff. Keep it coming!

    To answer a few earlier comments about the drive system - it can be fitted to a monohull or a catamaran (the survey would have showed you a video of one or other vessel). As it stands, the monohull currently uses hand levers to rotate the pitches of the blade whilst the legs control the drive shaft, whereas in the catamaran/pedalo version, the rotation of the pedals drives both the pitch and movement of the blades.

    Hobie is an obvious point of comparison for us, both systems using pedals to power fins, whilst each drive system could be attached to similar hull shapes. Whilst the effective marketing surely contributed to the success of the Hobie mirage, having established production and distribution networks must have helped the technology develop. This presents a large barrier to entry for innovators and designers who would consider bringing new technologies to market. Therefore has anyone heard of technologies being licensed in the manufacture of innovative human powered craft? And do you think it is the case that potentially successful innovations often slip through the net, so to speak, due to the difficulty of establishing a market base that's commercially viable? (- note, at this point I'm not suggesting that the new drive system I've brought up is a potentially successful invention or otherwise, but am rather looking to hear out people's ideas about the market for pedal-powered innovations more generally).
     
  5. WickedGood

    WickedGood Guest

    There are no right or wrong answers

    [​IMG]There are no right or wrong answers.

    Kinda touchy feely eh? Must be a Liberal Arts Major.

    The Osark Bullfrog. But you can eat the legs

    The little boat should be painted Green with Spots and sold as the Bullfrog. Put Flippers on the paddles.


    looks like Yuppies may buy it. Maybe you could market it to San Franciso types or from Greenich Village on the little pond in Central Park.
     
  6. portacruise
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    portacruise Senior Member

    AFAIK the #1 pedal powered boat in sales is still the crude, inefficient, ugly non conventional looking paddle wheeler. I believe it is the longest surviving pedal type by far. The big question is WHY? Examples by various manufacturers: http://www.directboats.com/pedalboats.html

    My guess is the Hobie is probably second, but it would be interesting to compare market share with the above and with the closest competition, traditional canoes and kayaks in their various forms.

    The bicycle is the analogous pedal vehicle on land. Hundreds of innovations have come and either gone or continue to hold a small share (recumbents, etc.) It would seem that pedal boats would appear be stuck in the same type of position compared to kayaks as recumbents occupy compared to conventional bikes. The only significant breakthrough that might shift market share would be lower price for pedal innovations, IMHO. It would seem that is not likely to happen because of increased costs due to complexity and low volumes of mass production.

    Porta
     
  7. jdrower
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    jdrower Junior Member

    Hobie race against kayakers

    As initially impressive as the description of that race and the accompanying video may be to some, the "whole story" is that the Hobie Mirage had an advantage on which it was able to capitalize. When the kayak paddles were in between strokes (i.e. out of the water), the Hobie could tug the kayak. Multiply that by every stroke in the "race" and Hobie won. I doubt if the race had taken place over a distance of 5k the outcome would have been the same.
     
  8. portacruise
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    portacruise Senior Member

    Good point, but wouldn't the Hobie fail to propel when it is in "reset" mode and reloading for its pulsed thrust? Also, I believe that there is a section on the human powered boat list where tug "bollard pull" is compared with speed in racing. As I recall, tug is best for moving huge cargo at very slow speed and doesn't translate to better speed in racing situations...

    Hope this helps.

    Porta
     
  9. jdrower
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    jdrower Junior Member

    Static thrust is simply that - thrust from a standstill. In a tug of war what you really have is a series of consecutive "strokes" each developing a certain level of thrust, or force. With the Mirage drive there is very little pause between what amounts to very short strokes. Compare to the paddler(s) whose strokes are necessarily longer, and with a greater pause between strokes.

    The Hobie's "reset" duration is tiny compared to that of a kayaker's.

    This "test" is intentionally set up in such a way as to favor the Mirage. This "test/demo" denies the paddler(s) the opportunity to develop headway and momentum (glide) and takes advantage of the longer pause/stroke of paddling. It simply takes advantage of the longer pauses between paddling strokes - when the Mirage is pulling against nothing.

    If your opponent stops pulling, you can beat anybody. The Mirage has only a momentary advantage, but prevails because the opposing paddler(s) never get to move. Set this up as a drag race and the paddler(s) would take a quick lead after only a few strokes. Irrelevent to real world kayaking, misleading at best.

    But would sure make a good bar bet.
     

  10. chilihead98
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    chilihead98 Junior Member

    I am the developer of the Tailboat. The commercial model is a lot more streamlined and sexy looking than the prototype shown on our website.

    We are presently in a state of "suspended animation". I've got three pallet loads of machined castings sitting in a warehouse here in California. However, for the past 5 years I have not had workshop space...or time...to launch the commercial product. Most inventors tend to have day jobs. My day job is as a consulting machinery engineer for the oil & gas industry. This has kept me extraordinarily busy since late 2005.

    I definitely plan to resuscitate the Tailboat project in the not too distant future.

    Kind regards,

    Tom McGuinness
    San Rafael, CA
    707-529-7477 (c)
    mcguinness@turbosynthesis.com
     
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