new boat project- input

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by wayne nicol, Oct 25, 2013.

  1. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    hi all
    quick background: i have a commercial liscence to run tours in a national park up here. the type of trips we are running neccesitates a high speed motor sailer, which we currently use, however we are needing to acquire additional boats(one at a time as funds allow).
    we need /want the boat to have an "old salty look" to it/ more traditional styling, yet have the performance capabilities that we need.

    so for the last, long while we have been mulling a lot of thoughts and ideas over in our minds.
    i have made some initial sketches- these are all open to change, they have already morphed dramatically over a period of time

    PLEASE NOTE: i am no boat designer, so please understand that this is purely a concept drawing, so sailplan, boards, waterline etc etc, have not been calculated or designed- this sketch would go on to the designer/s to give them an idea of what we are trying to achieve.

    the top sides, and type of sailrig (schooner!) are areas that i need to retain.
    i have some other sketches of proposed "floorplan" and other design features, and maybe i can post those pics later on if need be.
    LOD 30'
    beam 8'6"
    standing room (6' and a bit!!)at the galley area(under the sliding hatch in the pilothouse
    sleeping accommodation for 4 to 6
    top motor speed around 20kn( give or take)
    single 100hp outboard or twin 50's- or whatever it needs within reason!

    anyway this is a start, and i will go into greater detail as is requested- dont want to stretch the first post out too long

    i am open to all input and ideas.

    thanks all for the effort and input

    please forgive the amateurish pic of the drawings- dont have a scanner and fancy software up here in deepest darkest north west!!;)

  2. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    The concept looks ok. Leeboards look ok. The double rig adds weight, windage and complexity but i guess for tourist fantasy marketing, its needed. Weight aloft will require weight in the bilge for stabilty.

    20 knots with a load of tourists will be hard to achieve if the boat is heavy

    Double think your schooner rig. An atractive alternative might be similar to a dutch manure boat. Those boat can haul a lot of sh it .
    Freestanding carbon set well forward and out of people space

    Attached Files:

  3. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    thanks Michael,
    you hit the nail on the head, although it is a two pronged approach on the rig,
    1. yup it does appeal to the correct image for the tourists-absolutely
    2. unreasonable yes... but i just love gaff schooners

    so here is a more detailed application, one guide per boat, usually 2 clients, max 2 adults and two kids for guests.

    i was planning to use carbon masts and spars.

    it is a shoal draft boat, so there will be some lead ballast, but also probably some water ballast- to ease with the motoring.

    20kn would be top speed at W.O.T. with a medium load(emergency!!), so we should be able to cruise at around 14kn +-, to cover the time/distance thing.

    the tall tabernacles- serve two purposes
    1. the booms stay attached to the tabernacles for trailering/motoring etc
    2. they add some length to the masts, as the mast length is relative to the distance from the pulpit to the back of the house- this allows the masts to be down, yet still allow un encumbered motoring position, if ever need be.
    this is a very important facet of the concept

    i am hoping, that inadvertantly, the pilothouse height will ensure that the boom is far enough away from the guests in the cockpit

    we live in a rain forest here- so pilothouse is imperative, and possibly even a soft top bimini, as time goes on.

  4. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Deck space and side deck are lacking of spaciousness.
    If you have passengers they want also to be outside and not confined in the cockpit or inside.
    Sorry I didn't pay attention where you are, and perhaps you have a lot of rain.
    Anyway keep an eye for very wide side-deck, if it's impairs the cabin space, make the boat wider.
    High bulwark is always a nice touch.
    In my opinion and that's me, get rid of the lee board. Get the centerboard trunk under the side deck. You don't need two, one is enough.
    As for the rigging, go your way, you have no bad rig nor good rig, the one you choose as long as you know what you are doing will be OK.
  5. JSL
    Joined: Nov 2012
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    Location: Delta BC

    JSL Senior Member

    A nice looking boat ... good for cruising the Wet Coast but perhaps not the best of hull shapes for a 30' at 14/20 knots
    If you are carrying passengers (for remuneration) you will come under Transport Canada regulations. Which level will depend on the number of passengers & your Gross Tonnage, with 5 GT and 15 GT being the 2 benchmarks.
    If not already done, for a starter I suggest you download the TC "Small Commercial Vessel Safety Guide (TP 14070E) and read through it.
    One thing that might be a challenge is the additional gear you will need to carry on a small boat. Lifejackets (SOLAS type) and life raft will absorb space.
  6. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    thanks guys, valid points all round- just what im looking for.
    dskira,* the lee boards are to be able to free up interior space, to try and achieve as much boat as possible for the size.
    *with a boat like this , i am anticipating a fair amt of heel, so thought that the leeboard angle- relative to the hull can be built/designed so that it affords better "bite' at the heeling angles- dont know if this is sound theory- but would like to hear feed back on it!! this would be impossible with a single board.
    * it also eliminates a slot and turbulance, improving both performance under power and sail
    *with this type of hull, being prone to a lot more rolling motion at anchor, and clients will be spending all nights aboard( five to six days), i was thinking, that the two leeboards, deployed would help in dampening this.- i anticipate haveing to jury rig a system that will be able to tie them together quickly, safely and efficiently( have a few ideas in this regard)- to eliminate the clunking- like my current daggerboard boat does.

    JSL, yup i know;), i went through the whoile hubbaloo with registering the current boat for our operation, quite a process, i will be forwarding the entire list of regs and requirements to the designer.
    trying to keep it under the 5 tonnes- ( dont think it will be possible though!!)helps with the operator certification- as you well know, but these transport canada guys have some weird ways of working out displacement- but anyway all's working well so far!!
    *the hull shape depicted is probably incorrect with relation to performance requirements,as it is just a concept drawing-for me to better visualise my thought processes, and to get the scale of things kinda right- i am not pretending to be a designer...i am planning to leave the real design input to the smart guys:D
    glad you like the look of the boat- what are your ideas/feelings with regard to the hull shape?- all input appreciated!!!!

    you are sure right about the "wet coast"- so trying to work the concept around the weather- not really bahama's weather( although this last summer was a bit abnormal, eh?) so need a nice comfortable boat down below, and a good size open cockpit- fishing /lounging etc
    gonna give the liferaft issue some thought, but think there will be enough space under the forward boom for it, on the coach roof, inside the grab rails, and have an idea for the top side additional storage( life jackets, wet gear, some shore gear etc, have it in the other sketches.

    the type of trips we run involve a lot of gunkholing and shoal water exploring up the coves and estuaries, so not much time spent lounging on deck. hence the davits, and quick and convenient access to shore- lots of artifacts and points of interest to explore ashore!!!

    but nothing is cast in stone- really taking all notes and observations into consideration- keep 'er coming....
  7. Mr Efficiency
    Joined: Oct 2010
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    20 knots ? As John McEnroe would say, you can't be serious ? Anything like that will motor at 20 knots will sail like you-know-what.
  8. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: Arlington, WA-USA

    Petros Senior Member

    I like your concept. the the gaff rigs are perfect, classic look and good performance. but I would loose the lee boards. they are vulnerable to damage, poor performance and they will interfere with docking and loading/unloading.

    I think a weighted swinging keel that goes into a trunk below the floor would give much better sail performance, and look better too. the trunk might add some drag when motoring, but it will make the boat look cleaner and it will sail much better, and still give you shoal draft capability.



    I would also go with a wood deck and wood gaurd rails rather than life lines. lots of wood trim of course, inside and out.
  9. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    :D:D yer derned right mr. efficiency, i would like a med speed, planing power boat with medium sailing ability- not looking for a super high efficiency sailboat, otherwise the "design" would be quite different- but you are absolutely correct it is a huge compromise boat- i realise that, but un/fortunately the type of operation that we have embarked upon, very specifically requires this type of vessel, and as poor a sailor as they are, and as mediocre a power boat as they are- they do fit the role absolutely perfectly:cool:

    good point Petros- i think you see where i am coming from.
    the main motivation for the leeboards was to free up interior space, i guess the looks are a very subjective thing- i dont mind them.- but thats just me- however what you say makes perfect sense, as this boat will be trailered to the put in and away from the put in every trip- really hear a very good point-thanks!!!!!

    how much do you think the trunk will effect the motor speed ??- as that is a very real consideration for this situation!
    almost , but not quite like the box deadwoods of the jersey skiffs, like the atkins "surprise"
    but very different design concept i know- just an appearance observation.

    a draft of a few feet will be fine- we are not beaching here- no sandy beaches- just gravel- just like to be able to get up the estuaries some!

    food for thought- thanks

    why do you think that the leeboards are more prone to damage- their method of attachment to the boat, or their impact with the ground?-

    and you are spot on, lots of wood trim in and out is the plan- i do like the wooden guardrails though- will really look classic- great idea:idea:
    in relation to that point,i will go into my thoughts on the construction tomorrow- its late now!

    thanks guys
  10. Petros
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: Arlington, WA-USA

    Petros Senior Member

    The center board trunk will be modern and streamlined for the lowest drag possible, I doubt it would slow it more than about 1 or 2 knots at cruise. It will also give a more responsive and positive rudder input, less side slipping in a turn. It should allow you to make very tight turns, almost pivot on its keel even with the keel fully retreated. Might be a good consideration in tight areas. I am familiar with the type of environment you will be traveling in, I just live a few hundred miles south of you in the Puget Sound area. The wind is not very reliable around here either, particularly around the islands and many inlets. A motor sailor is an excellent choice for you type of charter sailing.

    yes, and yes. They are prone do damage when you dock, load and unload off your trailer, and when in tight quarters. They also ad some extra width that would be better used for bigger accommodations with a wider hull since you have a max tow width limit. The external mount would have to be very sturdy because the normal sailing loads can be quite high, it would add a lot of weight and bulk. If you should strike a reef or submerged object it would likely damage the side of the hull, or pull it off, as the boat heels on to the lee board it would put most of the weight of the hull onto the lee board, being pushed by the wind. You also have to have two of them, twice the cost, twice the rigging and complication, twice the weight (half of which does not help you when under sail). A center swing keel in a below hull trunk is easy to make very durable so a grounding will usually not cause damage. In a grounding with a swing keel, as the boat heels over it would take the load off the keel, unlike grounding a lee board. Lee board just seems like a very bad idea when sailing in tight quarters. Consider also that you will still have some keel effects even with the swing keel all the way up in the trunk, and the benefit from a weighted keel down low too.

    All of your below water line shapes could be of modern design to improve performance, including the swing keel foil section and the trunk cross section, without sacrificing the traditional look above water line. You would loose the "authentic" look if you used a modern shaped lee board, it would have to be a big heavy barn door like shape to look like a traditional design. there would also be a lot of interference drag between the side of the hull and the lee board, and it would do a lot of side slipping while under sail. why hamper the sailing performance any more than you have to. with a single center keel you also greatly reduce the work load on the crew when beating up narrow channels, like often happens in your area. with the lower efficiency of a lee board you would have to make twice as many tacks to make the same amount of head way as well.

    also go with a modern foil rudder as well. If you want the traditional look you could hang a fake barn door rudder off the back.

    I had actually thought of a similar sailboat for use in the Mediterranean sea. Many people spend big money to travel and tour the holy land, to retrace the ancient travel routes both on foot and by tour bus. There are even some cruise ships that retraces some of the sailing routs of St. Paul and the other apostles around the Mediterranean. I had read a book about a professor that retraced St. Paul's travels in a 30 ft sailboat (the book is called "Sailing Acts", also the name of his boat). It occurred to me if you could make a "traditional" looking hull that had above water line appearance of the ancient Greek trade vessels, with gaff rigging so it looked "old", you would have a reason you could charge religious people extra money for a more "authentic" experience. You can even offer up meals similar to what was available 2000 years ago in the area. It is an interesting thought experiment, but I know nothing about the mechanics of operating a charter tour business. I just like traditional boats, and I happen to have relatives in that live on some of the Mediterranean greek islands. It is kind of fun that you are actually going to build a vessel with a similar kind of purpose but for this part of the world.
  11. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    i'm in!!
    all absolutely valid points- and thats why i said i think you get where i'm coming from.
    that exactly, is the core of this design.
    traditional above the waterline, and modern design below the waterline- and until now i was convinced that the lee boards would contribute to the salty look and perform well- but i stand (happily) corrected!
    thank you

    remember that real sailers dont usually come on these types of trips( there are exceptions- of course) as real sailor/water people, usually have, beg, borrow or steal a boat, and do the trip themselves!!
    our target market is the kind of people that think they would like to sail, so reaching is the best for them, when one starts beating its usually a little too much- a few tacks are cool, so they can say they tacked- but to tack all day up a narrow channel( which i love , and CAN do all day!!!) usually wears off pretty quick.
    just a fact, based on experience- not being ornery!

    but that doesnt mean i dont want a boat with good windward performance, I do!!- so i think the knot or two lost in powering mode, would be a very fair trade. i know with my current boat, it really helps with docking and trailering to have some daggerboard down.- and these boats, with their high windage, and flat slippery hulls, are terrible to trailer- as any cross wind will really mess you about.

    what sort of rough dimensions do you imagine for the particular concept depicted above!!

    what are your thoughts on motoring at higher speeds, could the trunk trip the boat in a tight, high speed turn?

    A1. on the modern foil rudder/s- my thoughts exactly.

    have been pondering whether to go with two smaller motors, and a single rudder, or one bigger motor and two rudders.
    i like the safety of having two motors, and that a smaller motor will be easier to pull start in an emergency:mad:
    and one of the smaller motors to troll with, when i use the boat for fishing- personal use!
    but two motors may be pushing the aesthetics a bit too far, but maybe the motors could be skillfully hidden under cowlings/mouldings like my current boat is.

    so here's another question- the reverse chines on a motor boat, ( that assist with lift)could they be artfully incorporated into the lapstrake design , and would they adversely effect sailing performance?
    one N.A. i spoke to said the lapstrakes would serve this function, of assisting with lift- and thats great if they do- i just dont want to negate a good design opportunity, just from lack of trying.

    i am also seriously considering the use of trim tabs (or possibly interceptors), as i feel with trim tabs, i could really trim them down, to get a better bow attitude for motoring, and trim them way up to be in line with the hull to be better for sailing.
    the interceptors are a very neat concept too- but i am going to have to do a bunch of experimentation with my current boat first!!

    thanks again!
  12. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Any type of lift keel, board arrangement will intrude on interior space. A small boat will become very small.

    You should also do a rough calculation to determin displacement.

    I have feeling that its impossible to achieve 20 knots with modest power
  13. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    yer' right michael, that was my initial thinking for the leeboards, but as petros has depicted above- i think its a good compromise, losing a little bit of top end speed, for the improvement in performance, while retention of interior space.- but it was the practicality of the loading and strength issues that have me sold on the "external centerboard trunk"

    my current motor sailer will comfortably do 20kn at W.O.T. with a 60 hp outboard- and certainly yes!!!!!:mad:- it comes at a price in some aspects of the sailing performance.
    but thats just the personality of a high speed motor sailor- i just gotta embrace it:)
  14. wayne nicol
    Joined: Dec 2009
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    Location: Queen Charlotte islands, B.C.

    wayne nicol Senior Member

    here is what i had in mind with regards to construction:

    as we might very well be needing two or three of these boats ultimately, and they will be used for our commercial, guided operation, these are some criteria we have established
    1.high speed motor sailor- obvious at this point- with all the relevant features- built in floatation, self righting from a knockdown, interior comfort and space, trailerabilty etc etc
    2.easy and relatively quick to construct- this cannot turn into a 10 year traditional wooden boat "love" project- as much as my real passion lies with traditional wooden boats- this has to be economically practical.
    3.easy to keep clean and maintain- there will be very little time between trips for these boats in the summer months.
    4. has to look "woody" and traditional to the guests eye.

    i realise that the hulls of lapstrake plywood would be the quickest part of the build, with a lot more time spent on deck, and interior.
    so my thinking is : build a really solid, accurately reusable set of hull molds/stations- build the hulls in glass and epoxy coated plywood- good solid coating of glass on the exterior- essentially creating a plywood cored glass boat to some extent- the ply will create a nice wooden feel in the interior where it is exposed.
    2. to build a glass mold for the deck( and possibly transom area), once it has been thoroughly tested on the prototype- so that decks and cockpits can be readily replicated.
    3. to retain a traditional feel- there will be lots of exposed wood trim on the deck, ie: recessed areas for teak inlays,wooden grab rails on the coach and pilothouse roof, wooden tiller arm, either sitka spruce yards and spars- or probably wood colored carbon mast and yards, with wooden booms!, wooden bowsprit, wooden cheeked blocks- with dyneema rigging, wooden tender on laminated wooden davits,possibly wooden tabernacles and now wooden guard rails;)- all wood where possible will be glass and epoxy encapsulated- in bright finish-for ease of maintenance
    lots of wood finish and trim below- but also a lot of molded glass fixtures below for ease of maintenance, cleanliness, and speed of construction-eg: lockers, head/shower compartment, galley etc, but with wooden doors, nice wooden table , maybe some wood panelling- hardwood flooring( like the stuff in your house)and so on.
    4. my pet peeve on all the boats that i have, and have had over time is the leaky and rotting ply in the transoms, in the motor mount areas, so i might consider the transom being a glass moulding with a starboard type internal filler( have seen that done before- need to research it a bit more though!), with built in landings for the hull strakes, the strakes would be securely attached, and when the hull is glassed in and out it would encapsulate the glass to wood joins ( transom and deck) really strengthening the entire boat.

    i like the idea of the wood sandwich hull- for insulation, and sound proofing. the hull stations will be solid and easy to replicate- so that the hull will match the glass deck etc,
    the cost of a large glass hull mold would be prohibitively expensive- and not justifiable for the few hulls i would need, but the time saved in deck construction would certainly justify a glass deck mold- also the cleanliness and 'waterproofness' of it is attractive.


  15. Tad
    Joined: Mar 2002
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    Location: Flattop Islands

    Tad Boat Designer

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