New boat company - seeking opinions

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by salglesser, May 19, 2012.

  1. brehm62
    Joined: Mar 2011
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    Location: Indiana

    brehm62 Junior Member

    The boat is kind of interesting to me since it is similar to mine. Mine has a wooden cabin arch and was probably fairly high end when it was built in 1980. Mine is 3' longer so it has room for a small sink and two burner cooktop. Mine also has quarter berths. The weight and ballast are similar. Mine has a winch with steel cable to raise the 80 lb centerboard. Rope would be more than adequate at that weight. To get around the cabin problem they put an access cover over the winch so you can crank it from the cockpit. I would say yours is a good compromise assuming that you can let the centerboard freefall without damaging anything.

    I am curious about the depth though. My centerboard is only 10" wide and also fits into an external keel trunk. But in order to get enough depth to float the boat off the trailer I have to back up until the water is at the driver's door. Your keel trunk looks wider than that so I'm not entirely sure you would be able to launch your boat on that ramp. Of course, my trailer does use 13" wheels and the center rollers are set higher than necessary. I could probably save 1" if I welded some offset rollers. Mine is 32" from ground to bottom of waterline stripe when setting on the trailer.

    I'm also curious about the mast. Mine is 23' tall and fairly heavy. Raising it is not easy. Your boom looks low enough to smack you in the head; mine is above head height. However, I see you are using a deck sweeper jib in front which would also block your forward view. I have mine raised at least 8" off the deck.

    I think the bow does have a strong tugboat look. You might consider adding a second accent stripe in a different color about halfway between the top stripe and waterline following the strake line downward. For example a red accent stripe might break up the line of the eye on the bow.

    I'm not sure I would worry about thicker cushions. Your cushions look pretty decent. However, you might consider making up a quilted topper. A topper with high density fiber fill that had edges that folded up a few inches on the sides and hung a few inches over the front would completely change the look. A quilted topper is also softer than foam. These can feel a lot like a down sleeping bag. If you made the topper in pieces it would also be washable. If you have trouble getting it to stay in place you can make a sleeve on the bottom and just slide the existing cushions inside it. I suppose making a separate one for each cushion would maintain the existing functionality. This has many advantages including more selection of style, a softer surface, a washable surface, and some protection for the cushions themselves. Of course the risk of doing that is that someone might want matching toppers for the teak seats.

    I couldn't find any mention of sail area, mast height, or boom length.
     
  2. salglesser
    Joined: Apr 2012
    Posts: 58
    Likes: 3, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 47
    Location: Colorado, USA

    salglesser Junior Member

    Hi Brehm,

    Thanx for the input. The mast is 22', sail area is 140'. Thanx also for the heads up that the info is not listed on the site.

    Appreciate your thoughts.

    sal
     
  3. Seafarer24
    Joined: May 2005
    Posts: 228
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    Location: Tampa Bay

    Seafarer24 Sunset Chaser

    Please, not balsa core! I know you're interested in selling new boats and balsa is cheap, but is a high-density foam that much more expensive? Perhaps Starboard? Anything that doesn't ROT would be much appreciated- even if it's just another "option" the buyer could request.

    When I think back on the multitude of boats I've owned, I cringe at all the trouble rot has caused me over the years. I even broke down and bought a Walker Bay dinghy just so I could get away from rotting wood!

    Is the teak trim made of real teak wood, or PlasTeak? Ironically, I'd probably be willing to pay extra for PlasTeak...

    I would like to see an icebox or dedicated space for a commonly sized cooler to be placed.

    The classic lapstrake hull does look out of place under the modern cabin and rig. It looks tacky to me- very 80s. Doesn't seem to stop people from buying, though? Perhaps if these continue to sell well a "classic" deck/cabin and perhaps even rig could become an option? Of course, I've just finished drooling over a Winkle Brig so maybe I'm too biased at the moment.

    The size, weight, and performance are spot-on for this boats market. The design really is excellent!

    On the website:
    If you could use a wider-angle lens for the interior shots it will look much bigger inside!
    In the albums it would be nice to be able to go straight from one picture to the next instead of going back-and-forth.
    A different back-ground that tiles seamlessly would look more professional.
     
  4. salglesser
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Location: Colorado, USA

    salglesser Junior Member

    Thanx Seafarer,

    Yes we're using end grain balsa, but great pains are taken to avoid seepage. I understood that foam was still having some issues. Any particular brands or type recommended?

    I'll have to discuss it with the designer and crew.

    sal
     
  5. Seafarer24
    Joined: May 2005
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    Location: Tampa Bay

    Seafarer24 Sunset Chaser

    I haven't heard of any issues with foam and know it is in general usage in the multihull community. I would suggest asking Richard Woods for recommendations on which foam is appropriate for each application.
     
  6. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    That should be against the law --it is fraud. sell what you have and not what you dont --you will dissapoint less customers that way

    The camera never lies ? --yeah right.
     
  7. FMS
    Joined: Jul 2011
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    Location: united states

    FMS Senior Member

    I disagree - looking at a boat in person you use both eyes and move your head around. Your brain puts the scene together. A camera with a 35mm lens produces an image similar to closing one eye and wearing a neck brace. A wider angle can give a good representation of the space without being dishonest.
     
  8. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member


    But it doe'snt make it bigger than it is.

    Bigger than, better than, more than, less than, is all lies.

    If you look at the picture and the coffee cup on the side is the size of a frying pan then that is cheating and I find that annoying.

    When the guy turns up to see the boat and has only seen one of your pictures he is going to be disappointed and annoyed , is that good way to start a deal.

    If the Super size Big mac does not look like the picture, are you annoyed? yes , disappointed? yes. Kids crying? yes coming again ---NO.

    Burger King here we come. Well done photographer.
     
  9. brehm62
    Joined: Mar 2011
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    Location: Indiana

    brehm62 Junior Member

    The general rule of thumb has been:

    1. No cores below the waterline. The hull laminates should just be thick enough to give the necessary strength and stiffness.
    2. Foam is preferred on cabin roofs because water can flow into a hole drilled through the material.
    3. Balsa is considered a good material on the boat sides because it bonds readily. It absorbs enough polyester resin to have a mechanical bond and adheres readily to epoxy.
    The difficulty here is that any foam used must be one that does not deteriorate on its own and does not deteriorate when in contact with MEK. Closed cell foam is good to not absorb water but likewise has difficulty bonding with polyester. Some foams also have too low of a surface shear so they will tear out even if the bond is good. You can duplicate this yourself by sticking a good piece of tape to polystyrene foam (like is used on foam coolers) and ripping it off with foam still sticking to it. In contrast you can usually stabilize balsa by making certain the resin is thin enough for good absorption and then making certain that you put on enough that it doesn't all get wicked away. If it all gets wicked away it will starve the joint just like happens with glue. Even ordinary paper is stable when saturated with resin and paper deteriorates far more readily than balsa. Then too, it is also possible to stabilize a through-hole on a cabin roof if you treat the hole after drilling. Liberal amounts of paint, spar varnish, lacquer, or epoxy can all reseal the core material and keep water out. However, if the hole is only caulked then there is no protection when the caulk deteriorates. But resealing before caulking should be fine.

    I notice that with the simulated lapstrake their hull is probably stiffer than a flat hull would be so I imagine they use very little coring. The transom is not exactly the same as the hull sides. If the hull sides try to flex the failure mode is shearing or delamination from the core surface. However, on a transom you wouldn't often see shearing; it would usually fail by crushing the core material. As far as I know transom reinforcement is common but I have no idea the use ratios of lumber, plywood, aluminum plate, or balsa.
     
  10. brehm62
    Joined: Mar 2011
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    Location: Indiana

    brehm62 Junior Member

    I'm not sure that this would make much difference. Any standard lens has about half the viewing angle that you can see with your eyes. So, use a wider angle lens, right? You can but when you do it causes distortion in the image and this makes it impossible to judge size. For example this is a wide angle view inside the flight deck of a space shuttle.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Stumble
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: New Orleans

    Stumble Senior Member

    Foam and balsa both 'rot' they just do it in different ways. Balsa by actual rot, foam by hydrolic erosion. Either way you wind up with core replacement problems if deck hardware isn't bedded correctly.

    Sal, it would be more expensive, but a manufacturer that actually bedded every piece of deck hardware correctly would get a lot of bonus points in my book. One of my least favorite things in the world was when the yard I worked for sold a new boat, and the dealer would sell the new owner on a 'bedded hardware' upgrade. Nothing stupider than taking a brand new out of the wrapping boat, and removing all the deck hardware to install it right.
     
  12. brehm62
    Joined: Mar 2011
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    Location: Indiana

    brehm62 Junior Member

    Well, PVC foam can also deteriorate when exposed to styrene which can be released when polyester hydrolyzes (or absorbs water). Hydraulic erosion is a theoretical failure mode that involves the intrusion of water into a non-bonded gap between the core and outer skin. Then you have some type of hull pounding and this essentially forces the water into the core/outer skin joint and peels it apart. This failure mode is exacerbated if the inner skin is thinner than 1/3rd of the outer skin since a thinner skin has less resistance to disortion. However, there is the obvious question of how hull pounding would occur. In rough seas this could obviously occur on the fore and aft hull bottom and bow area. It could possibly occur on the transom or aft hull quarters with a following sea. It shouldn't really happen along the hull sides or middle of the hull bottom. This would obviously be much worse if you had a speedboat with a foam core at the bow because it would get slammed hard and often. It's difficult to image though that this could really be a problem for most inland sailboats or even most coastal cruisers since most pilots would avoid hard pounding conditions.

    The primary way to avoid gaps that could allow water intrusion is vacuum bagging. ATC Core Cell was looking pretty good back in 2005; is it still looking good today?
     
  13. salglesser
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Location: Colorado, USA

    salglesser Junior Member

    We're not using any balsa in the hull. The deck, cokpit and transom. Jerry Montgomery is pretty meticulous about the layoup and balsa location. Vinylester resin through out also reduces opportunity for moisture movement.

    sal
     
  14. scoob
    Joined: May 2012
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    Location: Golden, CO

    scoob Junior Member

    i've never needed to 'launch the truck' getting Sage 17 into the water. the standard trailers and 13" tires with long-ish tongue to keep the tow vehicle dry.

    the deluxe trailer, custom designed to be a perfect fit to the boat, has 14" tires, carries the boat a foot lower than the standard trailer, and has an integrated extendable six foot tongue.

    with 4/5 of the bunks wet you can launch the boat with an easy push.

    for retrieve if 2/3 of the bunks are covered you can get the boat onto the trailer and use the trailer winch to get her fully 'aboard' ... as the boat is #1300 pounds it is not difficult to crank onto the trailer.

    to add detail to Sal's post -

    * 22' mast is 35# including the standing rigging. very light for it's length. at 72 years old Jerry Montgomery, the designer, raises and lowers the mast on his Sage 17.
    * boom is 8' 3"
    * sail area of the main is 98 sq. ft.
    * working jib is 54 sq. ft.
    * 'lapper' jib is 65 sq. ft.
    * 150 genoa is 87 sq. ft.
    * storm jib is 16 sq. ft.

    (i have added the info above to the Sage 17 www-site. should show as active shortly. press your browser's 'refresh' key if not seeing the update).

    other sail sizes and cuts (ie, higher foot/clue/tack) at owner request. A Sage 17 in NY state has a 130% genoa on a roller-reefing furler.



    the boom is 46" (3' 10") above the cockpit seats so a lot of height for most folks when sitting (unless they have really long body trunks).
     

  15. scoob
    Joined: May 2012
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    Location: Golden, CO

    scoob Junior Member

    all the teak on Sage 17, internal and external, is sold real wood.

    if someone want less teak, or plastic teak (i call it 'soda bottle' teak), we will build to suit. a NY state Sage 17 (different boat from the one referenced above) has no teak on the cabin seats. owner also didn't want a bow pulpit.
     
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