New boat company - seeking opinions

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by salglesser, May 19, 2012.

  1. salglesser
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Location: Colorado, USA

    salglesser Junior Member

    Hi all,

    I'm a fairly new subscriber to your forum and I have enjoyed my time spent here. The knowledge and open-mindedness of this group is impressive. I've learned much.

    My wife and I have a new start up boat company. The pocket cruiser project began in the spring of 2009. Jerry Montgomery designed the boat and built the tooling. The prototype was shown in Feb 2011. We began building production boats in April 2011.

    The company is called Sage Marine. The boat is called the Sage 17. http://www.sagemarine.us/

    We would be interested in your opinions (pos or neg) on anything (boat or company) that you might take the time to share.

    If this thread breaks any forum rules, please delete and accept my apologies.

    sal
     
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  2. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Sage

    Congratulations on your new Company! Seems like a very precarious time in history for starting a new boat company.
    The boat looks absolutely delightful-typical Montgomery-a beautiful little yacht. My only criticism is the cockpit seating-I like to have the seats angled so that at a reasonable angle of heel you don't feel like you're getting dumped from the windward seat.(see sketch below)
    I wish you the best and welcome to the forum!

    click on image:
     

    Attached Files:

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  3. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    My comment is:

    What's the carbon fiber for? This surely isn't a race boat, so I'm wondering why you mixed carbon and glass. Is it just marketing? I know people are all ga ga over carbon fiber these days.

    Also, you should update the cushions to look more plush, even if it is only for a demo/website option. Those cushions remind me of my 1971, 23' Kells. Very *very* uncomfortable to sleep on. You need much thicker cushions to help sell the boat. People notice that stuff, even when they don't think about it directly.

    Just curious about this one: What's the little nub just forward of the transom on the keel line? I see it in the picture where the boat is in the lift. It appears just before the outboard.

    That's nice looking mold... must be a snap to pull a perfectly fair boat from it. Very good work there.
     
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  4. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ================
    From the website:

    Jerry Montgomery explains why carbon fiber is used for the deck -

    "Since the deck is well above the waterline, it's anti-ballast. Saving 100 pounds in the deck (and we've saved more than that) eliminates the need for about 200 lbs of ballast to arrive at the same righting moment. Combined this saves at least 300 lbs of weight. It's obvious what this does for performance and for trailering."
    •The transom is carbon fiber to reduce weight aft and keep Sage 17 on her lines.


    Makes sense to me-seems appropriate ....
    ======
    "r for u"-thanks!
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2012
  5. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member


    Ok, missed that part. Thanks.
     
  6. DCockey
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Location: Midcoast Maine

    DCockey Senior Member

    The narrow "laps" on the hull and blue sheerstrake say "traditional". The side windows with their sloping ends and deep tinted plastic glazing flush with the sides say "modern". The combination is somewhat jarring to me.
     
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  7. Stumble
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: New Orleans

    Stumble Senior Member

    A few things,

    1) retake the pictures of the boat under sail. Shots where the main is creased or pressed against the spreaders are typically not viewed very positively.

    2) I would think about replacing the keel winch with a 3:1 purchase system. If it will work, it would be much less expensive, and the loads should be pretty light given the weight of the centerboard. Plus the gear would be down below, not right where my shins are going to knock against it.

    3) With the large main and small working jib, a short bow-sprit and a-kite on a furler would really help going down wind. I think this would be an easier set up than a symmetrical spinnaker, particularly given the target audience of the boat. My thoughts on sail plan would be main, working jib, asymetric chute. This would eliminate the need for a geneoa, allow the working job to be flown like a staysail, and since everything can be kept on a furler, make things easier to operate.

    My guess is you could do this for the same or less money than getting the boat rigged for a geneoa and working jib. And likely for less than getting it rigged for a symmetrical chute.

    4) Not sure if this was just for testing, but on a new boat I would expect all lines and fittings to be spliced, not tied.

    All in all a really pretty boat. If you happen to make it down to the Gulf Coast let me know, I would love to come see it.
     
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  8. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    very nice boat. here in australia there is a great resurgence in trailer sailers at the moment. a boat like that would sell here.
     
  9. scoob
    Joined: May 2012
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    Location: Golden, CO

    scoob Junior Member

    which picture? lots of pictures on the site.


    --
     
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  10. salglesser
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Location: Colorado, USA

    salglesser Junior Member

    Hi Doug,

    Thanx for the input, appreciate the kind words. I'll measure the angle of the seats on Monday. Need a closer look. I know Jerry built in some rake for the same reason.

    You are correct in that it probably isn't a good time to start a new boat company, but it seemed like the right thing to do. Fortunately We both have "day jobs" so income from the company is only required for our two crew. the company is more product motivated than profit motivated. We expect to be in the red for a while.

    Thanx for the carbon fiber explanation. We're going for a high quality, high performance pocket yacht and this was Jerry's formula. While we only have a few boats out there, recent race results have been positive.

    Hey CatBuilder,

    We've had a few sleep on the boat with no complaints thus far. We're working with a good quality local vendor. How thick do you think the cushions should be? or what improvements do you think the cushions should have?

    hi DCockey,

    When Jerry Montgomery first began the project, he wanted to produce a performance pocket yacht. We were interested in the same goal. Jerry posted the question on several "Montgomery boards" and asked what improvements could be made on his current designs. While there were many suggestions that were incorporated into the Sage 17, the one feature that they felt should be retained was the lapstrake as sort of a Montgomery trademark.

    On the windows, we needed an unobstructed area in the cabin for the carbon fiber arch that supports the mast (eliminating the compression post). Windows had to be fore and aft of this arch. Jerry designed the current windows to be standard, although we can install any windows desired. Actually, the Sage 17 is more a modern design than traditional, except for the lapstrake. Hadn't thought about it, but I guess it's an odd looking combination.

    sal
     
  11. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
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    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Welcome to BDN. So nice to have a real boat builder here.

    I have been to your site and I have read Jerry's articles in 'Small Craft Adviser', as he went through the design process.

    Wisely, you have aimed at the high end of the market (the low end has no money). What you have is a delightful little boat, designed for the high end of performance in its class. I used to own a Siren 17 which, despite its equal length, was really much less boat. It's displacement (empty) was around 700 lbs, but is claimed to be able to recover from a 90 deg. knock down with its swing keel locked down. It routinely recovered from 60 deg. knock downs without the keel locked down. It too had sitting headroom below.

    Boats like that are your competition.

    In his articles, Jerry often mentioned performance as one of his top design goals. With its lap streak planking, it does not look high performance. It looks more 'traditional' (slow), for those who don't understand the stiffness limitations of GRP.

    I would suggest a bare bones one design racing class, where only the the standard issue sails are allowed. This, I believe will help kick start interest in racing for those who just bought the boat. Over the years, more sails would be allowed, encouraging people to keep their boats, as their skills and spending power increases. These races would never be called 'races'. They would be called 'meets', so even owners who aren't all that in racing will be encouraged to come as well.

    I would also suggest you provide maintenance tips for your new owners. GRP and other plastics used in the boat are not maintenance free. The better the early owners take care of their boats, the better reputation your brand will have. And the higher resale value it will have too. I used to wax my Siren three times a season, and I used to put Armor All(r) on all the other plastics. I had the boat for ten years. One day, during the last year I owned her, another Siren pulled into the slip next to mine. It looked ragged and worn and at least ten years older than my boat. The owner asked if mine was new. I said no. It was ten years old. He looked at me in disbelief. I asked him how old his was. He said five.

    I wish you the best of luck. So nice to see someone making something in America again. I hope you stick around. A lot of us dreamers will have a lot of questions to ask a real boat builder.
     
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  12. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    In the very sentence of mine you quoted I said which picture.... :)
     
  13. BPL
    Joined: Dec 2011
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    BPL Senior Member

  14. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member


  15. Stumble
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: New Orleans

    Stumble Senior Member

    Sal,

    I was thinking about your target audience with this boat, and was wondering what type of mast raising system you are using? Having spent a lot of time repairing damaged gel coat from people banging abound with gin poles, and swinging long mast sections, I would recommend some sort of tabernacle system. Where the base of the mast is attached to a rear pivot, then the mast is walked/pulled forward by the job halyard.

    Having just a couple on inches of Clarence between the deck and the mast base attachment point can make it much easier to get it attached before having to raise it.
     
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