New Battery

Discussion in 'OnBoard Electronics & Controls' started by rasorinc, Nov 15, 2014.

  1. Poida
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    Poida Senior Member

    Yes rasorinc, sometimes the threads deviate because the deviation can be far more interesting than the original subject matter.:p
     
  2. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    Also he did not specify what he wanted to hear. I am not a fortune teller and able to guess what is spooking in the mind of a person 10.000 km away. But I have understanding that he is irritated. Bert
     
  3. DennisRB
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    DennisRB Senior Member

    If I ever build a house a bit further out from the city going off grid will happen. Hopefully totally, IE water and sewage too. The installation costs of these amenities can be very expensive on a rural property anyway.

    The issue with off grid power is the amount the average household wastes. I know my gf and I could do it with no probs. But I am shocked at the amount of power most people use, having 4 air cons on at once, and using driers just because its convenient etc.
     
  4. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    Not at all... the problem is energy storage. And the main issue with that is its expensive. You c I understand happily run as much air con and driers as you like provided you have enough generation capacity , and then storage capacity for when the weather is unfavorable for extended periods. We are on the cusp of a new renewable energy boom in the form of micro grid inverter systems with large capacity battery banks so people can reliably go off grid, and actually save money as opposed to staying connected. Mark these words, the writing is on the wall.
     
  5. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    The consequences of this next wave movement to home battery storage systems could get very interesting...

    Very few people are installing residential rooftop solar these days, a far cry from a couple years ago when the industry was booming thanks to the governments 44c feed in tarriff guarantee. Nowadays, depending on your location, you get between 8c per kWh and zero. So you can happily pump your power back into the grid and get virtually nothing for it, meanwhile they sell it back to you at around 30c per kWh after the sun goes down. So we all have become power generators for the government owned power companies here in Australia. The people who took on the initial high feed in tarriff are sitting pretty, most I know receive a check in the mail every year for in excess of $1000 for their surplus power generation. The rest of home systems on the low feed in tarriff still have to pay a bill... So naturally , most people are no longer installing residential solar in this unfavourable scenario the government has created, unless you live in a houses where you use the power your generating during the day. Most people however, have to go to work and can't!

    The entire scenario changes if people begin to store their generated solar energy, then use it again by night. Same as we do on boats... If there is mass migration away from the grid, what will happen to it? How will the governemts raise revenue to maintain the infrastructure? Where will electricity prices go for those who still are connected and rely on it? Imagine what will happen to the size of the market for home battery storage solutions... All those who already have solar, and for everyone else where it's now feasible to install a system and still save money- unlike things are right now.

    Things are going to get pretty interesting indeed.... And there ain't much the government can do about it, other than re structure their finances to accommodate it...
     
  6. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    Not to do with boats,but if I were to go off the grid -it's tempting- I'd put in a nickel-iron set. Know a guy with a remote cabin,his set is about 40 years old.

    Last for decades,not tempermental.
     
  7. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Solar panels degrade with age. What are the estimates on current commercially available models? Windmills have a relatively short life too. 15-20 years is the maximum before they become structurally unsafe. At least solar panels won't break and wipe out a neighborhood.
     
  8. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    Solar panels are usually guaranteed for 80% rated output after 25years. The solar panels are cheap now, this cost is not the issue. The main issue is the cost of the batteries , and the suitability for the purpose so they last as long as possible before needing replacement.

    Lead acid batteries are not very suitable for a typical home system. They do not like being left at varying states of charge or being left at low states of charge which could frequently happen during periods of bad weather. Lead acid batteries only last if kept nearly fully charged. Lithium batteries on the other hand , are ideal for this purpose. They are happy at any state of charge other than 90% to dead flat and can be cycled at any level above this without undue shortening of their life span. The only catch is , the capital cost is still very expensive- more than the cost of the solar array to feed them.
     
  9. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

    I figure on about 30 years for a variety of reasons including obsolescence and breakage and general uncertainty. Their physical ability is quite a bit more than that if you go with a good chasis. But at some point, the chasis is going to cost more than the electricity generated. I think Kyocera warrants performance of monocrystalline silicon panels for 40 years. There are a few panels which have been in continuous operation for 50 years. Degradation of the complete panel is often under 0.4% per year, and much of that is due to coatings on the glass. I don't expect to ever throw one away in my lifetime. Grit and snow blasting and intense UV are the main causes of degradation identified so far.
    In well designed locations in the NE US, decay rates of less that 0.2% per year are being reported. 80% after 100 years would be nice, yes?
     
  10. DennisRB
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    DennisRB Senior Member

    You might want to think about that again from a different angle in reference to my post. Not wasting power, or buying a bigger more expensive battery bank are solutions to the same problem.

    Its obvious that when money is no issue anyone could buy a bank big enough for home use even when they insist on wasting power. My whole point is that the cost to do so would be prohibitive.

    I am also waiting for costs to come down and I hope for everyone sake it will be soon. I cant wait to see what the future will bring :)
     
  11. DennisRB
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    DennisRB Senior Member

    I am on the 44c feed in. But I only have a 1.1kw system. Elec costs me about $150 per 3 months.

    The issue with grid power generation and solar feed in is that the solar does not come in at times of peak demand. Peak demand actually occurs just after the sun goes down, so power stations and the whole grid is still sized for peak demand and burns coal etc to reflect this, so the fossil fuel and overall energy savings are not as big as they might seem.

    44c feed in actually encourages people to not use power during daytime minimum demand times which makes matters worse (as that means they get more money at the 44c rate for the surplus). At least when you get less money for the power you export during the day it encourages to use your own solar power instead of INCREASING the peak load on the grid. But honestly the average user probably does not even understand how to make/save the most money with their grid tie solar.

    What could be even more beneficial for the whole grid than some percentage of domestic residences running offgrid, would be for those to be connected to the grid but only to charge batteries on a min demand tariff (this would also suit areas which don't get much sun or and apartments etc)

    The sell price of electricity would be a few cents per kw/h (just like what solar sellers get these days as the power is coming in at the wrong time). So that at times of minimum demand your batteries would charge. Then during the rest of the day your house runs from the batteries. If the batteries go flat you can just pay a higher rate until the next day like everyone else, and try to not waste as much power again or buy a bigger bank.

    This setup would have the effect of reducing the difference between peak and minimum demand. This would take a big load off the grid if enough people done it. It would be an interim step to make our grid more efficient before going completely to renewables.
     
  12. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    I was wondering how difficult it is to make your own battery, also what kind of battery would lend for a hobbyist to make it himself. Please don't say, it cannot be done. Yes it will not be easy, but are there video's of people who have done this already or are there websites where raw materials could be ordered from?
    Bert
     
  13. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    Dennis, your suggestion sounds good in theory, or rather a Marxist society... Reality is that, the government is jacking up the price of power at a phenomenal rate. They aren't offering any discount low tarrif rates for battery charging anytime soon. If you stay connected to the grid, your daily service charge will still apply, regardless of how much power you export or import. Just this year, at the same time the carbon tax was abolished, our daily service charge increased from around 50c per day, upto 91c per day! This completely wiped out the savings an average family home should have enjoyed from the lower price of power without the tax on it any longer... Absolute skull duggery on our governments behalf. Only way forward, is to simply get way from the ******** entirely and go off grid . Not long now and the economics will begin to make it happen...
     
  14. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    Yes and then they put a "ready available service tax" on your off grid solar or any power plant. Will we ever win? Groper, what battery would you make if you had the raw materials and the knowhow on how to do it.
    Bert
     

  15. DennisRB
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    DennisRB Senior Member

    My comments were based purely on technical merit without considering government skull duggery (which unfortunately is a reality). However the idea is no more marxist than the 44c tariff feed in was. In fact it may be completely capitalist as savings can be made in the size required for power generation and transmission systems. If someone can save a buck there by supplying a very cheap rate to curb peak demands it may actually help the rich get richer. It may be the difference between a huge future infrastructure upgrade or not.

    Even at this exact point it time you could do it for 16c per kw/h on the night time tariff. There is no reason you would though (for your own gain) if you had sun and space for solar. The gains I was talking about would have been for the greater good of everyone that uses and runs the grid. I guess that makes me a bit of a pinko eh. Not really Aussie or American to think of someone other than yourself eh? :p

    However, with your optimism of huge price reductions in storage capacity, the grid supplied battery storage idea could save apartment dwellers a lot of money on the night time off peak tarrifs.

    All you say about the other hidden fees is correct. We got our water bill today. Around $300 for a quarter. According to the little graph we used a fair bit less that what ONE average person uses. Most of the bill is all sorts of fees that they just tack on.

    Same with the power bill. I just got back from my mothers. She has a 3kw solar system on the 6c feed in. She lives alone and uses little power. She generated something like 900kwh surplus, and used about 600. Her bill was around $170. I have educated her how to use power to make the most out of her system. Her hot water bill was about 30% higher than her regular power, even on tarrif 33! I will be installing a timer on her HWS so it only comes on between 11am and 3pm, so as to use her free power. It may need a smaller element so as to not go too much into the grid power.

    Clearly she has a massive ability to generate more power than she uses. But since the most we can save is $170 a quarter (less once I fine tune the HWS) no battery system I can think of will save money at current prices. But the gap is closing.

    I loved it when they divided up the council rate/water bills into 2 bills! At first they only added up to slightly above what the whole original bill cost. It only took a couple of years before each bill was just about as big as the original single bill!
     
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