New antifoul discovery - 100% effective AND green

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by brian eiland, May 16, 2009.

  1. philSweet
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: Beaufort, SC and H'ville, NC

    philSweet Senior Member

    Boy scout -yes. Not from Miami though. Grew up North of the Mason-Dixon. There aren't too many Sweets, except I stumbled across an entire town full in Michigan many years ago. The only other Phil Sweet I've heard of also lives here in Monroe county Fl. The local library gets us confused sometimes.
     
  2. Boatpride
    Joined: Oct 2008
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    Location: UK

    Boatpride Boatpride

    The Swedish have been the first country to put a ban on certain toxins in antifouls. The research sounds great and clearly of benefit to the oceans.

    Fascinating that the toxin deactivates upon leaving the paint. Now let's see what the take up from the anti foul industry is....
     
  3. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: netherlands

    yipster designer

    21st century antifouling ?

    ultrasonic antifouling from www.shipsonic.com/english.html may be dutch but sounds toooo good to be true, any thoughts or experience here ?
     
  4. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: netherlands

    yipster designer

    before youall ask, here their cut and pasted FAQ's list:
    =========================================================


    SHIPSONIC ULTRASONIC - FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS


    Why haven't I heard of the Ultrasonic antifouling system before if it has over 100 installations and is so good?
    This new shipsonic antifouling system has been in development and testing for the past three years. Only now, when we are certain that we can prove our claims, have we decided to fully market the product more widely. We are now fully confident in the effectiveness of the system which enables us to fully guarantee the system for two years.


    I understand there has been an analogue version available in the past, but this is digital. Why is digital better than analogue?
    There has been an analogue version of this technology which has been half-heartedly introduced to the marine market historically. It is very different to the new Ultrasonic Antifouling system that we are introducing. With the new Ultrasonic Antifouling system, we provide the very latest digital technology, which has a multitude of benefits. The main differences are:

    ? Analogue uses up to 40% more power than digital and when power is at such a premium in the boating world, this is a big issue.

    ? This system can use an increased number of different frequencies together, which means it can destroy more strains of algae. Algae develop in slightly different ways, so bombarding them with several frequencies will have a much greater effect than using fewer frequencies.

    ? Digital produces a much clearer ultrasonic sound wave and has a much greater scale of frequency possibilities.


    What happens when technology advances? Will I have to replace my system with a more up-to-date version?

    The very best thing about our Ultrasonic Antifouling system is that it is programmable. When the first GPSs were launched, they had 2 channel receivers and now multi channels are the norm. As the Ultrasonic Antifouling technology advances, you will be able to simply replace a chip at a nominal postage cost and continue to benefit from the most up to date system, without buying a new one every few years


    I have heard about such a system many years ago. What happened to that?
    There have been many attempts over the years to achieve the "Holy Grail" of keeping boat hulls free from weed, algae, barnacles and other forms of growth. Each of these has had their problems and indeed many have simply not worked. Even those which have had some success have other drawbacks eg. The need for multiple and complex resonator set-ups, intrusive and expensive adaptations to the hull. The Ultrasonic antifouling system inventors have fully investigated each of these problems in turn and have arrived at a system which is simple to install, needs no invasive attachments and works from the minute you switch it on.


    Can I install the unit myself?

    The system is simple to install and full instructions are given. If you have any doubts about your ability to carry out the installation contact us and we will try to advise you about installers.


    My boat has a skeg hung rudder. Will it keep this clear of fouling?

    Yes the Ultrasonic antifouling system has been tested on boats with skeg hung rudders and found to be fully effective but positioning of the resonator is very important.


    My boat has a complex prop arrangement. Will it keep this clear of fouling?
    Yes. However it is advisable to clean these prior to setting up the Ultrasonic antifouling system system which should keep them free of weed from then on. The positioning of the resonator is very important.


    I have a ferro-cement boat with a hull thickness of 1 inch. Will the Ultrasonic system work on this hull?
    Yes but the effect will be reduced compared to that of a GRP boat of equivalent size. The system works best on hull thicknesses up to 35mm. The thicker the hull the greater the resistance and there will be an attenuation of the ultrasound so this should be borne in mind. It is possible to have a more specifically designed unit if your hull is particularly thick.


    I have a bilge-keel yacht. Will the Ultrasonic antifouling system keep both fins clear of fouling?
    Yes. the Ultra System has been tested on bilge keeled boats and found to be effective. You should be aware that the keels may cause a "shadowing" effect which could reduce the effectiveness slightly on the outside of the keels. In such cases we may recommend that extra resonator rings are fitted so that the resonator can be moved periodically so that the whole hull is exposed to the ultrasound over time.


    What is the life expectancy of the system?

    The control unit is fully sealed and the resonator is encapsulated to ensure a long life. Only such things a chafing of cables or poor installation would prevent the system from operating fully effectively for many years. We confidently and fully guarantee the system for two years from the date of purchase.


    Does the system require any maintenance?

    There is no actual maintenance required for the operational life of the system. It would be prudent to make periodic checks on cables and connectors to make sure that no chafing or corroding has taken place. It is also a good idea to check the resonator for tightness from time to time.


    My boat is in a mud-berth will Shipsonic be effective here?

    No! The Ultrasonic antifouling system will keep clear only that part of the hull which is immersed in water. The part that sinks into the mud will attract weed in the usual way since the ultrasound will not penetrate the mud.


    I understand that the system works best when powered from a marina mains electrical system. My boat is on a swinging mooring. Will it work for me?
    The Ultrasonic antifouling system is totally effective whether it is powered by AC or DC. The unit uses very little power and will operate in exactly the same way. The units are available in 12volt, 24volt and 220 - 240volt.


    If I buy a larger boat can I transfer the system to my new boat?
    The resonator ring which attaches to the inside of the hull is fixed with strong epoxy and not easy to remove. New rings are available from us and you can simply fit new rings to your new boat and transfer the rest of the system to your new boat. Remember that for a larger boat of over 10 metres you will need further resonators.


    I have a motor boat with a deep displacement hull. Will the Ultrasonic antifouling system work for me?
    Yes provided that you choose the correct model for your boat it will be completely effective.


    What effect will the Ultrasonic antifouling system have on my fuel consumption?
    A clean hull will have a dramatic effect on the speed and smoothness through the water and will improve fuel consumption considerably. Consumption usually increases dramatically during the season as weed and algae accumulate on conventional anti fouled surfaces. Speed is also affected. This is prevented by your Ultrasonic antifouling system therefore you should save considerable sums on fuel alone and your boat speed should be increased.


    I have a racing yacht without engine or electrics can I still use the Ultrasonic System

    The Ultrasonic antifouling system keeps the hull free from growth it is ideal for a racing yacht. You will, however, need to fit batteries. We recommend that the system operates on a 12 or 24 volt system. You may wish to consider the optional solar source to keep the battery topped up,


    I have a centre-board yacht will it be effective on this?
    Yes, the Ultrasonic antifouling system will work on centre board boats and should keep the board aperture free from barnacles and weed.


    How long does installation take?

    Fitting should be carried out over two days. The system unit and the hull rings should be fitted on day-one. The epoxy should be left for one day to set. The resonators can be fitted the next day. The total time taken should not be more than a few hours.


    How quickly will I see an effect after installation?

    This will depend on a number of factors. If the boat is in the water and heavily polluted when the system is installed the algae and barnacles will begin to die off after only a few days. They will only be shrugged off by passage through the water. If the boat is regularly used then the hull should clean itself in a matter of a few weeks. Ideally though, you should start from a freshly prepared and clean hull for best results.


    Does this mean I need never take my boat out of the water?

    You will never need to slip your boat for anti fouling purposes. This does not mean that checks for mechanical inspection can be avoided. Annodes need the usual periodic replacements and rudders and running gear require the normal maintenance. The prudent boat owner will make their own choice on these matters.


    Is the location of the resonator critical?
    Yes, absolutely. In a motor boat, where there is more sterngear to protect, the resonator needs to be as close to this point as possible for best effect. In a sailing yacht the resonator should be sited within a metre of the propshaft and along the centreline of the boat. Full instructions are supplied with the unit.


    How many resonators do I need?

    For boats up to 10 metres a single resonator will suffice. This means an Shipsonic 10. For boats of 10 to 20 metres you will require two resonators so choose an Shipsonic 20. For boats of over 20 metres please ask us and we will advise advise on particular requirements.


    Do internal bulkheads affect the system?
    Internal obstructions will not affect the working of the system since the resonance is set up on the outside of the hull and permeates from there.


    Will the Ultra System work on stern drive units?
    Where there are large hull fittings such as stern drives it is advisable to clean these prior to setting up the Ultra system which should keep them free of weed from then on.


    Will it work on my trim tabs?
    Yes, trim tabs will be covered by the resonance set up by the Ultra system providing that the transducers are positioned correctly.


    Does the unit need to be turned on all the time?
    It is preferable to have the unit in operation 24 hours a day. We advise that it operates for a minimum of 6 to 8 hours a day to maintain a clean hull.


    Does the system make a noise?
    Not that you will hear without your ear very close to the unit. The unit pulses and there are lights to tell you that the unit is on.

    ======================================================


    offcourse there are a few questions left like eigenfreqentie, cost and what not but one can ask
     
  5. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
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    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    I first heard of those systems in the mid 80's. They dissappeared and now someone is selling as if they were new. I wonder what happened to the old units and how well they worked.
     
  6. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: netherlands

    yipster designer

    did not know it was try'd before, just read a reply on your question how good the old sonic cleaners worked, i am more curious to the newer systems tho as it "sounds" good
     
  7. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Again :eek:
     
  8. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    sounds like a great idea
    would be nice if someone came along and perfected it

    B
     
  9. Frosty

    Frosty Previous Member

    I was talking to a super yacht cheif engineer about this in the bar. He had had experience of it,--it did'nt work he said.

    I guess he means it didnt work well enough to continue with its use.

    I read also that when it goes wrong it "can" do serious damage.

    I would say that alone would make it unsuitable.
     
  10. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    hmmmm
    if the frequencies formed a resonant feed back it would amplify itself
    could definitely result in some real issues
    but the basic stereo amplifier uses a harmonic frequency tracking system in order to add amplitude a to amplitude b and end up amplifying the original wave
    they could use the same type system in reverse as a kind of safety switch
    kinda like sound cancellation but in the ultrasonic range
    shouldnt be that expensive although Im sure some fool would charge an arm and a leg for it

    sad that it didnt work
    I kinda liked the idea

    hey looky there
    Im about to turn a thousand posts
    do I win a burger and beer or anything
     
  11. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    masalai masalai

    Nah, you just become that little bit more cynical :D:D:D
     
  12. gerard baladi
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    gerard baladi Junior Member

    Out of curiosity and some interest, I tried contacting them twice through their website for info and pricing, They did not bother to reply.
     
  13. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    As in a microwave, the stuff does not usually bend around corners so is "line of sight" and to deliver a "knock out blow" to all the ships surface, many transducers are needed, the high frequency stuff needs to be hung in the water, some distance from the hull and pointed at the hull to kill/discourage the growth where not wanted... Does that mean lots of devices hanging in the water working around the hull to be effective? and how do you achieve this? - at least it will not be needed whilst in motion as it is usually conceded that they attach when the boat is stationery (tied up at a berth or anchored) in the water... - - For my boat, I think I will use copper, antifoul-paint and a 'gurney' to waterblast the marine growth off every-so-often...:D:D:D
     
  14. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    I really like the idea though, these guys may not have been able to make it work but it seems like eventually someone will. These things work well enough although adapting one to a boat might be a trick.

    http://www.allproducts.com/manufacture9/joywinner/jwp-311.html

    this article covers a wide range of such devices and how they work

    http://www.pestproducts.com/electronicpestcontrol.htm

    on the other hand there is this I found that makes a good case for it not working at all

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/403/do-ultrasonic-bug-repellers-work

    Im thinking of something not in the ultrasonic range when I say a resonant frequency, not sure what but not that high in range. Maybe something even significantly lower thats just enough to rattle a potential home enough to discourage plants and insects from wanting to stay
    seems like it should work, even if it hasnt so far.
     

  15. Dave Gudeman
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    Dave Gudeman Senior Member

    Ultrasonic sound, magnetism, ionization, pyramids ... these are the magic potions, the charms, and the snake oil of the modern world -- the tools of the charlatans. People today "invent" cures and protections from these elements today relying on the same sort of magical thinking as the people who invented voodoo dolls and love potions in the past. The human race as a whole may have acquired great knowledge over the last few centuries, but the human animal has changed not at all.

    I can't say for certain that this particular sonic application is a fraud, but it deserves considerable skepticism. Ask how it is that sound from these devices is so much more deadly than all of the sound that barnacles are exposed to in the natural environment. Ask how it is that this sound is only destructive to the things we want destroyed and not to the things that we want left intact. Ask for the test results from an independent laboratory, and preferably the test should be double-blind to reduce the tendency for a laboratory to find results that its employer would like it to find.

    I was going to write more, but it's late and my horoscope says that I have a big day tomorrow so I'd better sign off.
     
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