New anchoring system thoughts

I am going to have to agree with Frosty on this one. The weight is so important down by the anchor, they even make sentinels/kellets to help get more weight down there:




Maybe the all rope rode (special rope, I do understand) could make use of a sentinel to get the pull direction more parallel to the sea bed? Very important to have the pull in the right direction (ie: not up).

 

(I know the answer to this question.)

At what position on a rode does a kellet of a given weight result in the closest to horizontal pull on the anchor?

 

Having made that post while dead tired from 2 hours sleep last night and a long day of work on the boat, my answer to this question is now, "left ashore."

When you *really* need the chain or kellet, your anchor rope rode or chain rode is bar tight in 50+MPH winds. So... it won't do you any good.

I have to take my entire post back above. I would have edited it, but that wouldn't be right.

If your anchor rode is bar tight (be it chain or rope), all that would matter is your scope and nothing else, since the rope or chain would be in a perfectly straight line from your bow to the anchor.

However, it is my opinion that the OP should at least rig up something good to soak up shock loading somewhere between the rope rode he plans to use and the cleat he plans to fasten it to if that rope is something like steel. Don't forget many boats sail at anchor and there are also large waves in an anchorage if you get caught with your pants down. Those shock loads would be best soaked up.

 

Stumble,

You seem to miss my point entirely.

All the power to you my friend.

-Tom

 

You can hold a boat with small anchor and big chain but not small chain with big anchor.

You will drag.

Its always the same people that drag in the anchorage, they gain a reputation for it. Just cant seem to work it out as they think it should work.

Get an anchor on the beach with some rope and drag it about, you will learn a bunch.

Kedging is backing with the anchor just touching the bottom without enough scope to set.This was used by the Thames barges to stop the bow drifting.

This would be 2 to 1 or more. This what a lot of beginners think is anchoring.

A rope is good for only one thing and that would be transfering the full length of chain to rope for an exeptionly deep anchoring in an EMERGENCY.

 

Hey there "Stumble" - love your 'mantra' - but why can't we older/wiser boating people - have both?? 'with boats' & 'in boats'

Now about anchors, chain, rode etc. - In your first submission you - not me - state a 'fundamental premise' - - pray tell just who's 'fundamental premise' is this. The 'older clay-pipe' gentleman is quite correct - the are inexplicably linked - if not almost inseparable - are they not?

I want - need to learn lots & lots about - - the most effective anchoring for the weight carried - please. I can't carry any excessive weight- no more than I can go cruising with 2 anchors, chair, windlass etc - hanging off the bow - so I look like a bloody big-time chrome stupid yobo. Don't see any advantage in pitching up & down instead of going smoothly forward. I've found smooth comfortable motion - spills less 'sundowners' & I can use my hands for more rewarding activities.

In my slightly advanced years (all spent on - in the water mostly building & sailing yachts of all kinds in a few countries) I wish to - anchor once - safely & very secure so that I don't interrupt the "in boats" part of your mantra - which I think I would like to practice however I didn't rally want to get any sudden interuptions with/in these practice event times.

Long distance cruising in all of SE Asia is planned for later this year. For my vessel I'd looked to up-grading to a 26 kg (55 to 60 lbs) Mason Supreme or Brugle (probably both) c/w 60 mtrs of 10 mm short-link chain then to 40 mtrs of 8 mm chain - then be able to attach 40 to 100 mtrs of 14 mm / 3 strand poly rope. Most anchorages have few if any other boats in them - so swing-room is not a problem. What is my biggest concern is the always present 'mini-cyclone' type severe wind gusts that can & do - come from any direction - at anytime & mostly without much prior notice, usually c/w with torential rain c/w no visability.

Vessel is 9000 to 15000 lbs, 40' +, long & has substantial windage. Will want to charge around in any significant wind (a drogue over the stern will quiet that down but not stop it).

I'd be very grateful to learn what you would suggest & why it might be considered 'better' & 'safer'?

I'd like to thank-you for any time you may wish to spend to offer you valued opinions. It's what makes this site & it's people to thoughtfull & nice. Ciao, james - aka 'jj-geri-hat-trick' from down-under.

 

Go with 100 meters of 8mm chain set from a quality anchor windlass for your primary anchor . A chain link for connecting 8 to 10mm is impractacle . The anchor size should be appropriate to your boat and correctly nested on the bow for day to day use.
Bigger...heavier...is always better for penatrating the bottom.

Manson, Brugle, CQR , Bruce are all good anchors. Ive used Bruce for the past 300, 000 miles. No complaints . CQR nest the easiest.



A long chain is always advantageous. If weight in the bow of your boat is an issue , use two anchor chain lockers. The primary...under the anchor winch shall hold 50 meters or your typical daily lay and the secondary chain locker shall be well aft and hold the chain tail. When you need a 100 meter lay you must shoot the first 50...then reload from the tail locker . It works.

Your second anchor should be the biggest you can fit inside the boat and manhandle in a tender . Rig it with a boat length of chain and 100 meters of yacht braid rope. A second anchor is typically handled from amidships with a spinnaker halyard and a trip shackle . Many people chose a big danforth because it is lightweight enabling dingy deployment... They give superior weight to holding ratio in sand mud bottoms.

This second anchor may be set astern, off the beam or bow so correct fairleads must be available.

Neither of your anchors will handle a cyclone ...you must use seamanship. This seamanship will become apparent as the cyclone approaches.

 

How can you be so specific , have i missed something--did he tell us what length and weight and what windage his boat was?

I must have missed this.

 

26 kg anchor ? that would be for a 40 ft boat. A good windlass like the 24v , lewmar V3, uses 8mm as its mid range chain and roughly matches a 26 kg anchor

 

The problem is anchoring is a SYSTEM .

A smaller anchor requires the loads be fed slowly , so the anchor will not rip out.

Most folks use a far to large line , that offers little stretch ao the anchor is yanked out.


It takes 10% to 15% of breaking strength to get most nylon to stretch .

The chain , anchor weights and all the rest are simply a method of slowing the onrush of the anchor loads.

Nylon (out of the rocks and coral) is probably as good as it gets.

Wire rope has almost no stretch , and I would avoid it without an anchor watch 24/7.

FF

 

A 40 footer with 24 volt!!! There is plenty power suitable for a 40 with 12 v

 

The customer is always right. They may choose any voltage .

With the Lewmar Id go 24v. Lower amp draw means smaller copper conductors. 24v gives Faster chain pickup and higher working load than 12v . The faster the chain comes up the longer the motor lasts, the longer the relay lasts. Fast retrieval is also adventagous when things are looking bad at 3 in the morning

 

Silver raven,

By premise I meant the technical definition "A basis on which reasoning or an argument procedes". In this context, it is the underlying idea that the rest of the concept is based on, and which if proven false would necessarily destroy the rest of the concept.

To restate, the premise is that "pound for pound, additional weight in the anchor increases holding power faster than weight in the anchor.

If this is true, for any given weight of an anchoring system, you will be better off placing as much weight in the anchor as possible, and reducing the weight of the rest of the components as much as possible. The logical result of this is that a 40' boat that might normally carry a 60lbs anchor and 300' foot of chain weighing 4lbs/foot, for a total system weight of 1260lbs, would have better holding power by using a 1200lbs anchor, and 300' of light weight line instead.


I don't know, but I am curious what size vessel would typically use an anchor this big.

 

" I have yet to see any report that indicates that an additional pound in chain generates more holding power than an additional pound of anchor. If this was true, why even use an anchor at all? Just drop a few hundred feet of chain an don't mess with the anchor"

Stumble, you crack me up!

If we apply your above logic then all you need is a huge anchor and no rode!

-Tom

 

This premise = TRUE.

Only difficulty is the end of the windlass run when you are lifting the 1200lbs anchor from the sea bed in the extreme example.

Good thinking though. Makes a lot of sense.

In light conditions, it acts like a mooring - you just have weight there and it doesn't even matter if the damn thing is set or not. The anchor could be laying on its back with the shank along the sea bed. The mass would keep the boat in place.

In heavy conditions, when the rope rode becomes very taught, forming a straight line from the anchor to the bow, you end up using the "hook" factor of a very heavy anchor.

In light conditions in a crowded anchorage, you would be able to drop it like a mooring on short scope because it's not going anywhere.

I think you have "stumbled" onto a brilliant idea, my friend.