New Age Trawler/Motorsailer; Kite assisted PowerYacht

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by brian eiland, Nov 20, 2007.

  1. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

  2. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    No, I hadn't see it. I'd say it's a 80-20 motorsailer or the like....
    Probably those small sails are not very effective to stabilize the boat. Not to push it at a decent speed except in strong winds. In my opinion a waste of money, but.....
     
  3. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

  4. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    Astonishing. Three of the best contributors to this forum on one page, Brian Eiland, Guillermo and Tad in that order. Excellent.
     
  5. TeddyDiver
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    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    Considering Brians age maybe.. ;)
     
  6. peter radclyffe
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    a 20 meter motor sailer, 5.5 mt beam, 3 mt draught
    [​IMG]
     
  7. u4ea32
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    u4ea32 Senior Member

    I nearly always agree with Tad, and I agree with Tad's review of the Greenline: essentially, that complex systems usually end up contributing more to problems than they do to advantages.

    I think that the opportunity to be "green" is in consuming less. Luckily, that means the original cost can be less (less systems, less structure, less stuff), and that the cost of ownership can be less (less fuel, less things to break, cheaper things to repair).

    I think that many of the "normal parameters" for yacht designs are obsolete, and lead to these 1nmpg or so boats.

    Some of you may remember when really high performance Maxi sailing yachts weighed about 100,000 lbs (mid 60's until Merlin in late 70's). Ragtime, and then Merlin, demonstrated that a maxi racing yacht could be really light, and therefore really cheap to build and own. When the boats were originally built, nearly everyone assumed the boats would be throw away boats. Yet Ragtime and Merlin have done more Transpac races than any other yachts. After 45 years Ragtime is still going strong. Merlin was sort of hacked up a few years ago, but its not far off its top condition at about 35 years of age. Both of these boats weigh only about 25,000 lbs: this is a huge difference. The fleet of sleds that followed Merlin, and subsequent yachts such as the IMOCA 60s, Volvo 70s, etc. have continued to demonstrate that very light displacement yachts can take the worst the ocean can offer, while achieving amazing performance under sustained heavy sea conditions.

    Today, we tend to assume that L/D of 200 or 300 is reasonable for safe vessels. I suggest that L/D of 20 is far more green, and very easily and inexpensively achievable today.

    With light designs, and appropriate discipline applied to outfitting, green boats are pretty much automatic. No weird technologies, configurations, or breakthroughs required. Just light and long (very low LD) and simple.
     
  8. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    I wouldn't presume to comment on one of the greats like Peters design just like I stayed off the perfect passage-maker thread other than as excellent reading material, but one thing I can speak to is conservation, both in an environmental sense and in the energy sense.

    In a nut shell, simple conservation wont really work. The human population over the last 10 years rose slightly more than 10%. The reality is none of us are using 10% less energy than we where 10 years ago, so all in all to conserve enough energy to make up for the 9 billion people we are about to have on this planet we would have to reduce our energy use per person by at least one percent a year over the next 30 years, not happening.

    The only real chance of making up for there being so many more of us is to find alternative fuels like bio-diesels and other green technologies. So going green and making it viable is key to any future practices that can be expected to last.

    The fuel efficiency of a boat is about the lowest of any vehicle, they simply have to deal with more drag than planes and cars. Although planes actually get pretty crappy millage as well, (5 mpg for a large passenger jet) deal is although improvements can and are being made its the type of fuel that really needs to change. after that the efficiency is secondary.
     
  9. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "The only real chance of making up for there being so many more of us is to find alternative fuels like bio-diesels and other green technologies."

    Actually if the worlds politicoes would stay out of the "problem" , the normal supply and demand will price the worlds energy properly.

    The USA today is paying for the destruction of 41% of our corn crop , for election cash donations.

    And then some claim they cant understand why food prices go up, so we should kill off a couple of billion "useless" folks ,as Margret Sanger and W Wilson early progressives suggested..

    FF
     
  10. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    John Shuttleworth to experiment with kites

    John wrote recently on a forum discussion:

    We are installing the winch and gear to fly a kite like the Skysails system off the 42 m Power tri. We will develop our own control system. The kite is a large version of a normal kite boarding kite. The numbers show that if we can fly the kite in a pattern at 300 m high we can generate enough power to pull the boat under kite alone at 15 knots.

    The trick is the height of the kite. At 300 meters the wind speed is higher and you can make the kite travel further and faster across the sky. This is what generates the higher power.

    With the low drag of the power tri this concept becomes realistic as a significant power source, where the boat can sail at a good speed. Not just fuel saving.
    ****************************************
    http://www.john-shuttleworth.com/New.html
    Orion Shuttleworth has spent the past 5 years working for Bernard Olesinski, a specialist in powerboat design, primarily concentrating on deck design and styling for the Princess Yachts. He has developed extensive skills in 3 D modelling with Unigraphics NX surfacing programme, and brings a wealth of Big Boat design experience and understanding of LY2 and RINA regulations to offer as a service to our design office.

    His expertise in 3D rendering can immediately be seen in his work on the new Power 41 meter Tri, currently building in China, in which he is playing a significant role in all aspects of the final stages of the design and preparing for classification under the Hong Kong flag authority.

    Orion is also bringing his kiteboarding extpertise to developing a kite assist system for the 41 m Superyacht. Current systems for ships are very heavy and complex. Orion is working on a system that uses conventional kites which can be water launched, or launched off the deck of the boat. Progress will be reported on our site.
     
  11. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "The trick is the height of the kite. At 300 meters the wind speed is higher "

    At 300 meters you might need a radar transponder and some sort of lights to avoid catching air craft and helicopters.

    The liability insurance could easily outweigh any fuel savings.

    FF
     
  12. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    thats kinda a frightening thought Fred
    leave it to the insurance agent to find another way to gouge the public eh

    slap a blinking light on it and call it good
     
  13. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    I would surely hope aircraft are not out at sea flying at only 1000 foot altitudes...unless they are stunt pilots :?:
     
  14. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    Brian,

    In the UK, we have this:

    "Since article 86 does apply, kites in the UK are restricted to flying below 60 metres (around 196 feet). In fact the restriction is 30 metres within the aerodrome traffic zone of a notified aerodrome during the notified operating hours of that aerodrome (article 86.2b (iv). "

    http://www.zenoshrdlu.com/kapstuff/KAPUKLaw.html

    It is specific about ground level, which means hills, valleys and especially headlands over the sea present interesting dilemmas. I suppose compliance would depend on wind direction.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beachy_Head

    However, the ceiling for traction kites at sea, out of sight of land during daylight might be an area on which there is no ruling as yet. I think that Bernard Olesinski, John Shuttleworth and Princess Yachts will have looked into any legislation vis-à-vis their new design.

    It seems to be common practice for commercial shipping to switch off their radar on long ocean crossings to reduce wear and tear on the equipment and to avoid false alarms from whales or other objects floating in the water, so a radar reflector might not be necessary. One would hope such vessels would keep a good watch and see the traction kite. There's no substitute for a pair of eyeballs scanning the skyline.

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3120/is_11_80/ai_n31011446/

    Rigging lights on the kite for sailing at night, is straightforward I would have thought. "Second star on the right, and straight on 'til morning".

    Regards,

    Perry
     

  15. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "I would surely hope aircraft are not out at sea flying at only 1000 foot altitudes...unless they are stunt pilots."


    Sorry, but the US Navy Patrol planes I flew (SP2-7 or P2V7) regularly ran patrols at under 1000 ft many at 500, day or night.

    In ASW operations 100ft was the norm , looking for magnetic hull contact.

    Not stunt pilots , just junior JG's following Da Book.

    FF
     
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