Need Help with Unique Problem

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by DiningShip, Feb 16, 2009.

  1. DiningShip
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Location: Pasco FL

    DiningShip Junior Member

    Hi everyone, new here. My name is Ross and I run a small business serving private dinner cruises on the west coast of FL. Generally we’ve been serving them aboard several 30’ sailboats of various types, but we’d (the charter company who handles the boats, and me, the food aspect of the business arrangement) would like to expand to having six people aboard every cruise with options of dishes, and doing a weekly offering. Presently we sell the boat and add food as an option, which is expensive for most costumers.

    We face several challenges in this regard:
    1) The boats have limited seating, and even more limited cooking and prep areas. I can do up to six people now, but they have to agree upon a single dish to make it work.
    2) We face tide restrictions as these are mono-hull boats which require deep water just to get out of channel. West FL where we are is mud flats and grass land mostly.
    3) No table area (unless they eat below, impossible in FL summer with a kitchen going).
    4) Light sailing only 5-10 degrees pitch until dinner is done, not as exciting as we would like.
    5) The captain having to adjust lines in a cockpit with people eating.

    What were looking into doing is buying or more likely building a boat to suit our needs. Hence my handle of DiningShip. All evidence points to a Catamaran style ship with sailing capabilities. Most existing catamaran sailboats are built with personal comfort and long range sailing abilities. We need none of that, though a head would be a great. What my mission is, is to find some assistance in designing the hulls (there are custom fiberglass pontoon makers who can handle making those) and design a custom kitchen/dining deck for guests. I’m well outside my league as having only build a couple of kayaks. I may have funding to get this boat built, but I need to draw up some business plans with ideal prices. 3D models of anything wouldn’t hurt either. Would anyone be able to help or willing to assist on this project? Anything would be appreciated.

    As a talking point, here is some design goals:

    1) Comfortable entry/exit of vehicle. Presently guest cringe while climbing aboard the boats, scary for some older ones.
    2) Seating for six, three to a side, with room behind to serve guests.
    3) As much visibility to the outside passing water as possible.
    4) A cover over dinners preferably solid with viewing to sails above.
    5) Fully equipped kitchen, grill, stove and oven. Ice Boxes are fine for cooling.
    6) A raised pilot house for captain, with all sail adjustments at handy location.
    7) Catamaran hull with a focus on stability yet good sailing qualities with minimal draft.
    8) 30’ Range.
    9) Any suggestions you can offer…:idea:

    Thanks!

    Ross
     
  2. rasorinc
    Joined: Nov 2007
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    rasorinc Senior Member

  3. robherc
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: US/TX

    robherc Designer/Hobbyist

    Well, honestly, I don't feel that I have nearly enough experience to design the boat that you're needing, but I can still offer a few tips that you may or may not find helpful.

    1. This thread double-posted in the forum when you submitted it. Please delete one of the two threads (this one, if you don't like my comments ;) ), some people will likely not reply to your post simply due to being offended at the "forum clutter."
    2. If you end up with a 30' long catamaran with 3' wide hulls, you'll have 90ft^2 of hull area, which will displace about 465lbs per inch immersed per hull (180ft^2 & 930lbs per inch immersion for both hulls). This will still give you a fairly efficient 10:1 fineness ratio, and should give you a VERY shallow draft (especially after you figure OUT the weighted keel from the monohull :cool: ); some here may well recommend a higher 12:1 or 14:1 fineness ratio for better efficiency, and I wouldn't argue with them...just wanted to show you a more solid idea of your multi-hull draft advantage.
    3. I would HIGHLY recommend going with as high a beam as you can (up to about 25') without making the boat too hard to handle in your channel. The wider the cat, the lower the ANGLE of roll in waves (longer pivot arm moves the same distance with fewer degrees of travel).


    ...Just my $0.02, take it or leave it.
     
  4. robherc
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: US/TX

    robherc Designer/Hobbyist

    @rasor:

    He already stated that he's at least "leaning towards" building a cat...I think he's wanting a designer to stand up and say "I'll take that project" now. You want it?
     
  5. rasorinc
    Joined: Nov 2007
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    Location: OREGON

    rasorinc Senior Member

    No, I only build for myself. Not looking for work
     
  6. DiningShip
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Location: Pasco FL

    DiningShip Junior Member

    Thanks for the pretty pictures Rasorinc. Definatly not what I'm looking for. To a-typical of a dining ship. To isolated from the outside world. Might as well just mount LCD TV's next to some dining booths. Part of our current draw is to sell the experience. Did you design that boat?

    RobHerc; I was hoping for a beam of between 12 to 15'. Otherwise I'm not sure it will fit in it's slip with out trouble (it is an End slip, but management might want to charge more for a larger vessel). With the mentioned size of those hulls, how high would she sit in the water? Low draft is awesome since running her up on a island would be excellent selling point. Any idea of where I could find someone willing to sketch up a hull for me? It could be very rough as it's for pricing purposes.

    I saw the double post, but can't seem to find where I can delete the form. Not sure why the system did that either. Any help with that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
     
  7. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Hello Ross,
    wait until PAR steps in here, he lives in Eustis FL and I am shure he will assist you at least to sort out the crap from valuable offers, if he does´nt like to design it himself. (You are in good hands if).;)
    You may search the forum meanwhile to find PAR´s Gallery, and or send him a PM.
    look here:
    http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=2040
    Regards
    Richard
     
  8. rasorinc
    Joined: Nov 2007
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    rasorinc Senior Member

    No, I did not design that but someone on the forum did. I just said build a Cat for stability. Going side to side and up and down plays havock on many inner ears and the result is not pretty. A good designer or NA could disign the topsides of a cat anyway you want it to look. Clipper look? man O war? in a couple of weeks I will post pictures of the elevations of the 30' cat I'm just starting on. Call the Coast Guard for regs on your usage. You might have to put an auto fire supression system in. Also, check what regs are on materials. Best of luck to you.
    I agree with the above--Par could be a real help to you. http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=158
     
  9. robherc
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    robherc Designer/Hobbyist

    DiningShip-

    1. You can go with 12-15' overall beam if it's necessary to avoid higher slip-charges, but a 12' beam cat will roll little over twice as far as a 25' cat...that's the compromise you'd be making. I'm not saying you'd be better off with 12' beam or 25' beam for your exact situation, just telling you where your trade-off will be.

    2. I'm working on a FreeShip sketch of the hulls to give you some displacement figures for more "real-world" hulls...I'll post the results when I get done.

    3. If you reference the attached picture, you can click the "EDIT" button at the bottom of your opening post in the other thread, then click the "DELETE" button that becomes visible after that in order to delete the duplicate thread.
     
  10. DiningShip
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Location: Pasco FL

    DiningShip Junior Member

    Tried to delete other post per instrustions and I only get Save, Go Advanced and Cancel options. No delete? This seems overly complicated, or I had too much rum for lunch.

    I will Pm Suggested contact to see if he can help a bit. Nice to see someone state side that can help.

    Here is another angle of this project. I'm at a loss as to powering this ship. There is a good 30 mintue ride out of this chanel before the sails can even go up. Price is always a consideration, but so is weight and lines. Would I be more apt to look at twin outboards? or maybe a single inboard hidden under the main decking? This isn't really done to often with cats, but it would be possible if we could raise a bridge in the rear of the craft to serve as a cockpit, with then engine underneath. Those volvo IPS engine set ups would be pretty expensive yet stunning! Thoughts?
     
  11. marshmat
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    marshmat Senior Member

    There are a few power options for cats; generally speaking, the captain will be much happier around the docks with a prop on each hull than with a single engine in the centre. If I were in your situation, I'd just write up a detailed description of how it will be used, and leave the powering decision in the hands of the NA.

    For more inspiration: "Island Star", see photo below ( http://www.1000islandscruises.on.ca/dining-cruises/boats-captains/island-star ). She's somewhat larger than you're talking about (180 pers.) but is intended for similar use- dinner and sightseeing cruises, selling the "experience" at $70 or so a plate. The business model seems to work and people love the boat. Like I said, not quite what you're looking for, but a successful and profitable example is always a good starting point.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. robherc
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    robherc Designer/Hobbyist

    DiningShip-

    I just completed a (rough) sketch of the hulls for 30'LOA, 3'hull beam, and 15' overall beam. If you have a copy of FreeShip (or DelftShip), I'll just send you the file & you can look at it, or modify it to your content. Otherwise, I can post a few screen-shots in here for you to look at.
    Just to give you a ballpark estimate, the hullform I came up with displaces about 5.8 tons at only 2' draft.
     
  13. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    DiningShip, I have a design that worked in the diner cruise trade for the first portion of it's service. It currently is working as sun set cruiser on the east coast, but is a powerboat and called "Belle" in my gallery. She's 50' with 16' of beam. Piloting is all done above the guests in the pilothouse.

    If you drop me an email (click on my name) we can discuss options. I don't think 30' will produce an aesthetically pleasing vessel, given your requirements, though a few more feet of length could solve the problem.

    I'm well acquainted with the shoal nature of Florida's waters, so draft issues shouldn't be a concern. My only real question now is to create a yacht, that doesn't look like a sail powered Winnebago on pontoons, which might be difficult in 30'.
     
  14. rasorinc
    Joined: Nov 2007
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    rasorinc Senior Member

    I think you must have twin engines for safety. I am putting 2 inboard engines
    hidden in the rear of my 30' sponsons. I'm going to attach them to jet units although props and rudders are almost as easy to install. I'm going with inboards as they cost far less then the larger outboards and use less fuel.
    , and are more durable. You could even make a cat look like this though I suggest less sail.
    http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/3342
     

  15. robherc
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    robherc Designer/Hobbyist

    Isn't that a ketch (as opposed to a schooner)? Looks more like main + mizzen than fore + main to me...I know, technicalities....it's a pretty ship though.
     
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