Naval Architect practical application

[comfisherman]

Do modern naval architecture programs require some sort of residency or internship? What is the standard, or is there a benchmark of practical knowledge for certification? Does it vary across north America or the EU?

For those who went to na school, were most your classmates from some form of marine background or personal connection to boats?

 

[jehardiman]

Do you mean boatbuilding trade schools or collegiate programs leading to a degree in Naval Architecture?

While there is no national "standard" requirement for being a Naval Architect, there is a NCEES (National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying) exam for professional engineers in NA&ME, the need for which varies from state to state. Naval Architecture and Marine | NCEES https://ncees.org/exams/pe-exam/naval-architecture-and-marine/

Additionally, some collegiate programs have a residency/on campus requirement to award degrees.

Realistically, in the US, there are very few schools which offer naval architecture programs at the collegiate level; haven't checked recently but most likely less than 10. There are more "marine studies" programs, but many of those are more "dirt" than "ships". Best Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering Degree Colleges in the U.S. | 2024 https://www.universities.com/programs/naval-architecture-and-marine-engineering-degrees (not a good list though, doesn't include Webb) (Edit to add a better list, but almost 20 years old College? https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/college.12599/#post-95905)

As far as 'real' naval architecture students (as opposed to general 'marine' students) go, most of my classmates and those who I worked with later fall into 3 main categories. 1) They want to be yacht designers, 2) The military/company paid for it, and 3) They got a free ride scholarship, because, hey it was there.

EDIT: I realized I didn't answer the actual question. So for those in category 1) & 2) above, most already had a passing connection to boats before attending.

 

[comfisherman]

Interesting, I was thinking Collegiate level. Had wanted to be an architect many years ago but got talked out of it for a different stem field. Seems like a lot of fields are requiring some sort of internship or fellowship before accreditation testing. Guess it would be harder for a standardsized type of practical requirements with a field so small and spread out with such a wild variation in final job placement.

Interesting composition of motivation for school.

I'll have to look back at the ones I've talked to over the years, how many had passed the pe.

 

[jehardiman]

Interesting, I was thinking Collegiate level.

Look at this old thread.
College? https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/college.12599/#post-101633

 

[jehardiman]

Also see this thread about being a "designer"....
What are the limits of a Yacht Designer? https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/what-are-the-limits-of-a-yacht-designer.51110/

 

[comfisherman]

Motivation for the question was some experiences recently, in the early stages of build planning. Decided to go down the rabbit hole and use the crew shortage issue to work on two different newer built vessels. Upon completion of the last season the owners had dinner with me to talk about their build process. Was a bit surprised that a naval architect was involved in more than just hull and hold layout. Five weeks aboard, my view on the design and layout was that it was maddening. It wasn't just one layout issue, it was virtually all of them. While not the worst design I've ever seen it's top 3.. was very surprised that an established yard with professional help put it out like that.

The best laid out boat I've been on recently was designed by a fellow 12 years ago in his late 70s. Sadly he's no longer with us, so no chance of hiring him. Spent several weeks being amazed at the clever use of space and ergonomics. Life is infinitely better on a well designed boat.

Just got me thinking about how educational establishments are tasked with the difficult job of sorting competent and incompetent. Health care tries with residency (although culture of social promotion has mitigated its effectiveness), was always curious how the boat world sorted. Suppose the quality of the end work is the best way to tell.

 

[jehardiman]

I have always felt that Naval Architecture is one of the last few guild systems. While you can go to school to be taught the theory and math, you actually have to experience the "design" and "politics" side of the job, and be willing to absorb the history and whys of particular arrangements, details, and methods. I was lucky to have an "apprenticeship" under some well seasoned older engineers. There I learned that you often have to go head to head with the owners/sponsors desires and price point. Naval Architecture is a profession where the customer is not always right; and it can be a fairly narrow line to walk.

I don't know the case for your arrangement issues, but it could be a failing on both sides of the table. Good, cheap, fast....pick two.... is a truism in commercial construction.

 

[jehardiman]

Just got me thinking about how educational establishments are tasked with the difficult job of sorting competent and incompetent. Health care tries with residency (although culture of social promotion has mitigated its effectiveness), was always curious how the boat world sorted. Suppose the quality of the end work is the best way to tell.

Reading back over this conversation, I think I understand what you are getting at. So here is a touchstone; the service academies (Navy, CG, MM) send their student to sea during their schooling to learn actual practice. As far as I know, Webb Institute is the only US non-service college that requires real world work experience during the course work. (the "winter work period"....shipyard, then at-sea, then design office for the last two years). And yes, that gives a very different perspective to those young Naval Architects; and it is important to remember that Webb is selection only (i.e. only 25 applicants per year are selected for this tuition free education) so they have to want (for whatever reason) to be there in this field.

 

[comfisherman]

Ah yes I remember Webb. Spoke to admissions, about the time the towers fell. Was hard for a kid from Alaska to comprehend going to the east coast. No ragerts as the tattoo goes, seemed like a neat old world way to do it. Don't think at the time my Sat was up to snuff.

What inspired it is the radical differentiation in quality of end product that I see. As someone who's getting ready to be an end consumer of a naval architect's work it's made me interested to see if there is a trend I the education. Am fully aware that all fields no matter how stringent will have practitioners above and below the average.

Last boat referenced had full architect imput from before the keel was layed through the launch. Having now seen a binder full of 3d prints it was built exactly to design... a design with a feature set that almost feels like it has contempt for the seaman.

My early experience with naval architect's were with guys my grandfather's age, who's experience predated frp and even aluminun welding. Sadly much of that had been lost to the cruel march of time. When we built our first skiff the old timer asked if we had the standard miller 30a or had we acquired a push pull with the then very new pulse mig. He'd made slight changes to the designs to accommodate the differences heat management and torch manipulation. Was a very well layed out product to build and equally good when completed and put to use.

 

[Ad Hoc]

Also see this thread about being a "designer"....
What are the limits of a Yacht Designer? https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/what-are-the-limits-of-a-yacht-designer.51110/

Aahh...back in the day when we could have proper reasoned and unbiased debates with posters seeking answers.

 

[comfisherman]

It's definitely possible we are well past the Era of forums. Not entirely sure where all the data has gone, probably Facebook and YouTube.


At any rate, guess the long and short of it is to pick a NA based off portfolio first and foremost. Appears to be the best indicator for a successful design.

 

[jehardiman]

Last boat referenced had full architect imput from before the keel was layed through the launch. Having now seen a binder full of 3d prints it was built exactly to design... a design with a feature set that almost feels like it has contempt for the seaman.

Question: you said you talked to the owner after a 5 week underway....were they also the operator (i.e. Skipper or crew)? Or did they hire operations out? Did the owner have an example boat he liked? As I said before, I'm seeing failure on both sides of the table because working with the SOCOM guys, sometimes they knew exactly what they wanted...and sometimes you had to protect them from themselves...

 

[comfisherman]

Partial ownership operated, to my knowledge the only request the owners had was main brand and color. They honestly believe all boats in that size are hard to work because they are big. Didn't have the heart to orient, it's never good to point out a toxic wife, ugly baby or miserable boat.

It wasn't a big fatal flaw like unstable or something like that. It was just an endless list of very frustrating design choices. From ladders to layouts, if you set out to make a boat hard to use as a gag... it would be it. Vertical ladders that as the boat loaded went slightly past vertical. With rungs and handles such a large diameter its a falling Hazzard. An internal staircase made for a man 8 feet tall with size 4 feet with a diesel stove at the bottom. The only ac heater in the entry way pointed at the door. Water tankage for a boat 5x smaller, a bathroom and shower stall that made anyone over 5'8" look like will Ferrell off elf when using it. A dash so tall there were milk crates to stand on to look over the bow... no window or wheelhouse powered ventilation. Table big enough to seat 10 guys but only one access point big enough for an adult male. Bunk access hallway narrower than the average man's torso width with a table jutting in it. Every cabinet opened away from the sink and stove top. No provision in the crew quarters for heat or gear drying, no provision for any gear drying except an internally vented dryer that fogged the Un ventilated wheelhouse to the point of unusable... never mind a deck that had three height transitions of about 3 inches. Could go on for about every feature, but it starts feeling mean.

I'm very familiar with the obstinate owner with very unrealistic or bad ideas. There was a builder who was very honest about making whatever you ask no matter if it was a good or bad idea. None were unsafe, but all rose and fell based off how reasonable the requests of the owners. 10 plus years on some are regarded as the absolute best and others.... not so much.

Since the 80s we've slowly moved towards trying to make a boat that does everything. 40 years ago it was a rare boat that seriously fished two let alone three species. My last little boat had 6 different species permits for 7 gear types, for fisheries that ideally have boats with wildly different specs. Sadly none are valuable enough to support one hyper specialized boat, well at least not valuable enough to support them for more the a couple years.

 

[jehardiman]

Since the 80s we've slowly moved towards trying to make a boat that does everything. 40 years ago it was a rare boat that seriously fished two let alone three species. My last little boat had 6 different species permits for 7 gear types, for fisheries that ideally have boats with wildly different specs. Sadly none are valuable enough to support one hyper specialized boat, well at least not valuable enough to support them for more the a couple years.

Yep, that been pointed out in several NTSB loss investigations of Alaska vessels in the past decade...boats converted to fisheries they were not designed for. Otherwise, seems like somebody never knew that there were anthropometric tables for tables, ladders, hatches, etc. Always go for the 90% male.

 

[comfisherman]

Lots of the converted big boats weren't good when they started and they converted even worse.

Also a goodly portion of boats built by owners with "seeker" style train wreck results. Makes for good YouTube but it's hard to watch from a practical standpoint.


This fish price down turn ought to cause a lot of new accidents and tragedies. Last time we had a 5 to 7 year down turn the average boat was 20 years old, we're going in to another downward cycle but now the average boat is going to be 40. Eliminate the money for upkeep and start deferring maintenence and its gonna be another batch of tragedies.