Nautical Architecture Texts

Discussion in 'Education' started by LP, Dec 17, 2006.

  1. LP
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    LP Flying Boatman

    I would like to find a NA text that is formated more like what you would find in a college. Most(all) of the texts I've read, while being quite informative, are lacking in the area of exercising the knowledge that is presented. Most college style texts, at least for math and engineering type studies, contain problems and solutions so an individual can can practice the skills and also see if his application is correct.

    If anyone is familiar such a text I would certainly like to here from them.
     
  2. DavidJ
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    DavidJ Senior Member

    I'm not really sure if there are any either. I am a naval architecture student and all of our text books are great reference books, but they have little in the way of problems. Me and a couple of other students were talking about this a while ago and we decided that somebody needed to write some(or if they are written then tell our instructors about them).

    I'm interested in this one, but I've never seen a copy myself:
    http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-..._bbs_sr_1/105-5227559-6619631?ie=UTF8&s=books
     
  3. Smoothride
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    Smoothride Dog Owner

    I had that book in school, and it's a good investment. That was 11 years ago, but you can get a new copy from SNAME:

    http://www.sname.org/publications_catalog.htm

    I think the naval academy uses that as their intro text. You can sort of follow along with some of the labs they do via an online website. Things you don't get, ask on this forum under design. That should get you going on your way... Here's the link:

    http://www.usna.edu//NAOE/courses/en200.htm


    R/SR
     
  4. jehardiman
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    jehardiman Senior Member

    The reason you don't see NA texts with problems is that for almost all NA "problems" except for the simple math problems (i.e. plug and chug formulations), which you are expected to be able to solve anyway, there is no single "correct" answer so problems and answers would be less than useless. For NA there is no Roarks, or ASM Handbook, or Cranes piping handbook, and no Schaum's outlines. To do so invites limited investigative thinking and a lack of throughness that leads to poor engineering and fatal results, all of which the NA tries to avoid, even if you could ever measure what the "correct answer" was anyway. College text books are just the physics that Naval Architecture is built on, they cannot provide the "answers" and shouldn't even try. As a NA the only thing you have to sell is an opinion, and you had better be able to justify yours to your supervisor/ Lead PE/client without saying "I copied it from a book".

    If you want it all laid out for you, go to school and become a civil engineer where you can look up in a table that brown water flows downhill on concrete.;)

    The closest text to you are looking for is Rawson and Tupper, Basic Ship Theory, or the very out of date (c1900) Theoretical Naval Architecture by Attwood.

    Read this thread: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5466
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2006
  5. Smoothride
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    Smoothride Dog Owner

    I take it you're not a civil engineer?
     
  6. Tim B
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    Tim B Senior Member

    "Basic Ship Theory vols 1 & 2" are good. Also have a look at "Ship Hydrostatics and Stability" by Adrian Biran.

    A lot of Naval Architecture and yacht design is quite simple until you want to know the answer in more detail, then it gets very complicated very quickly.

    Tim B.
     
  7. LP
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    LP Flying Boatman

    Smoothride, (always the goal) :)

    I'm thinking that was addressed to me.

    No. I'm a lowly, underpaid pilot. I've completed two years towards an AE degree, so I've got lots of math under my belt and a few classes like statics and dynamics.

    I guess thats why I'd like a text that presents some sample problems to let me work through so I can compare my results with the correct results.
     
  8. LP
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    LP Flying Boatman

    Tim B.

    I get most of the theory. I guess the I get a little concerned when it comes to RM vs. sail area vs. heeling moments, etc. The part when you start putting the whole performance/power sha-bang together with sailing vessels.

    As a hobbyist, I'd like to know that I'm at least applying calculations corrections correctly and getting valid results.
     
  9. Smoothride
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    Smoothride Dog Owner

    LP--nope, aimed at Jihad-- Just a funny retort to his post --which was somewhat negative towards our civil engineer cousins, not that I care--I'm a marine engineer (but school was 11 years ago).

    You're a pilot--as in airplanes?

    I was too, until 2 months ago. I flew in the navy for 10 years (P-3s), then did a charter pilot gig flying kingairs. Also there in the mix was 6 months at a naval arc. firm, just to learn about it, but the flying bug bit...

    Well, an AE degree is useful, hope you get to finish it up! I think that's pretty cool!

    What R you flying?

    --SR
     
  10. LP
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    LP Flying Boatman

    Typed in the Learjet and Kingair 350. Flying the 350 right now. Looking for an east coast job. Sitting in Cabo right now wishing the wife was here.
     
  11. jehardiman
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    jehardiman Senior Member

    No....but for these last few days I've always wanted to be a lumberjack....(cue Mounties...)

    Hard on CE's?...nahaaa. Just an old, but relavent, joke as to why brown water tanks are down low. But my first answer is mostly true, you need to develop your individual answer to the unique problem presented from first principles.

    To be honest though...there is no exact SA * (wind speed-boat speed)^2 * some factor = heeling moment or driving force equations. Way too many variables. Lots of rules of thumb though...and only experience is going to tell you what factor to use when. Thats why they keep the IMS VPP equations so hidden. On one hand, they are exploitable for loopholes, and on the other they show a lot of ignorance.
     
  12. Smoothride
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    Smoothride Dog Owner

    Jehardiman;

    Staying outta the wind up there? I lived on whidbey for 7 years--wondering how my house is doing!


    LP;

    That's funny, I was flying a 350 and a 200 for the last year and a half with a 135 charter operation out of SAN. That 350 can climb like a homesick angel! It's like the SUV of airplanes, or maybe a station wagon, carries so much crap. Are you flying a new one with the collins pro line 21? I had an efis 84 in mine, with the FMS coupled to the autopilot, life was ok. Are you doing single pilot ops? I got real sick of the on demand charter gig, being on 24 hour call 26 days out of the month, and only getting 4 days off. Real sick... Going back east?-- I see Teterboro in your future (it's such a big biz/corporate a/c hub)! Ever heard of Sparta Vortac in NJ (on the way into newark)? Sparta is the town I grew up in, lotsa airline pilots lived there. I flew out of sussex airport as a kid.

    Take care, hope your back for the holidays! I'm moving to Korea in a few days--I'll check in from time to time along the way. :)

    Fly safe,

    SR
     
  13. Smoothride
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    Smoothride Dog Owner

    Here's that collins pro line cockpit for our viewers out there. Several business aircraft out there have it. Pretty cool. Lots of boats are going to glass on the instrument panel, a great idea, indeed. :D

    Cheers,

    SR
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Tim B
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    Tim B Senior Member

    LP,

    If you want to know that resistance predictions are correct for your performance calcs, you'll have to find some tank-test data to validate it against. The driving force and side-force from the sails is harder to verify.

    For performance prediction, at least we can be pretty certain about the central part of the code, because that just balances forces and moments.

    Tim B.
     

  15. LP
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    LP Flying Boatman

    SR,
    No Prolines in my cockpits.:( I can't say that we are doing 26 days a month, but we are damn close some times. I'm scheduled for for 21 so far this month and there is still 13 days left in the month. The 350's are pretty versatile. They eat fuel a lot like a jet, but they don't have the speed. Decent range until you pick up a 100 knot headwind.

    Tim,
    I'm not even beginning to look at velocity prediction. I'm probably just being lazy, I am a pilot after all:rolleyes: , but I guess I'm concerned about about applying aero forces to the sail, righting moments to the hull, and analyzing the couple that formed between the two. I've through it, several times in fact, and just need to work through some examples to reinforce the reading, apply the calulations and compare my results. I guess, in a classroom environment, the examples and problems are given by the instructor. Example problems are going to make me investigate the answers and apply the formulas and probably show that it's quite simple and make me ask myself why I'm making such a big deal out of it. Even still, I'll bet NA students work through a few design problems before they are turned loose on us.

    I'd like a text that presents more than a single example or present my with questions that force me to put all of the elements together myself.

    Jehardiman,
    You confuse my "performance/power" statement and understandibly so. The performance that I speak of is more in how the vessel responds to the power generated by the aero forces on the sails. Does she stand up or does she lay over on her ear? I'm not looking at designing racers, but I'm setting out saying, "I want to build a slow boat," either :D And yes that brown stuff does run downhill, until it hits the water and then . . . . :?:
     
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