My new perspective on multi safety, opinions?

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by peterchech, Oct 16, 2012.

  1. Timothy
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    Timothy Senior Member

    In a day driving around Bangkok on my motor bike I probably have more near death incidents than I have in more than fifty years sailing.
     
  2. bruceb
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    bruceb Senior Member

    storms and luck

    Some years ago, I was racing a J-22 in a J 22 and 24 regatta when a squall line came through with an imbedded (invisible) thunderstorm. There was low visibilty due to rain with the wind at about 15kts, which gusted to over 50 and stayed over 30 for over 20mins. One 24 sunk, several 22s swamped, most were knocked down, and I watched a 22 close to me do two 360s, the keel in the air type. Even with my sails down, we were hiking and still had the rail in the water beam reaching. From the first 20+ gust to 50 was less than two mins. A bad day on the lake.
    I am not too confident I could have depowered my buc in time to prevent a capsize.
    I try to keep that memory with me when I decide when to reef or just stay at the dock. In our area, a chance of a thunderstorm is predicted five out of seven days a week during sailing season- I would never get to sail if I didn't go out with storms around. I do try to minimize the risk, both by closely watching the weather, and reducing sail early.
    During races this season, I have been in two 25kt+ squalls with my light air sails up- once at night in the rain. A full crew, roller furling and a main with a good reef system and lazy jacks kept things under control. The Buc does have a lot of reserve, and I have much more confidence in it since then, but neither would I want to be in those conditions by myself. I certainly don't want to try it in 50kts.
    I think multis, and certainly small over rigged ones like mine:rolleyes: demand a more conservative and attentive sailor than many monohulls. Of course, there are also rewards:cool: B
     
  3. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    I realise there is a lot more to this discussion than the above comment, but I feel compelled to point out that a lot worse can happen to a mono due to high winds.

    For example if your offshore and the boat fills due to a knockdown you could find yourself treading water with or without an epirb, that assuming you get out in time.

    I am not making any blanket comments about the relative safety of the types. IMO that's nonesense. Great crews have made passages in dodgy boats and poor crews have sunk great boats. Bad conditions have beaten both.

    If you race, or sail like your racing, your chances of comming to grief are higher. If you start with a worthy boat and sail it carefully your chances of comming to grief are minimised.

    I learned to sail on keel boats. I would be most reluctant to go to sea on one now, but that's about my personal preferences and opinions. YMMV. Blanket claims that monos are safer or multis are less so are nonesense.
     
  4. Eliseviv
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    Eliseviv Junior Member

    Random logs and containers, punch a hole in a mono vs multi. By far my biggest concern especially when sailing at night.
     
  5. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    I agree that blanket claims are nonsense, but how often have keel yachts filled and sunk due to knockdowns?

    I can't recall of a single "Cat 2" type yacht (i.e. one of around 30' or more and designed for Fastnet-type Cat 2 races, rather than a Mini Tonner or J/24 "Cat 3" boat or an inshore boat) sinking in this manner. I can recall smaller boats sinking, such as Molecule (Cordelle design IIRC) sinking in the Mini Ton Cup of '78 or '77, the Quarter Ton Paradice sinking in the '78 QTC, the Farr 727 Waikikamukau sinking in this manner off Sydney around '83, and perhaps a Davidson 1/4 going down off Southport (Australia) around '92.

    The fact that memory brings to light boats sinking half a world away 35 years ago indicates that these are not things that are ignored or forgotten, so if bigger offshore monos had sunk in this way it is unlikely to be easily forgotten. Therefore it's unlikely that this is a common occurence.

    If the broach and sink sequence is so vanishingly uncommon, then should it really be brought up as often as it is?
     
  6. DarthCluin
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    DarthCluin Senior Member

    While it is a ship, not a boat, the Bounty went down last week in Hurricane Sandy. It was a modern recreation of an archaic design, but it was big, it was a monohull, and it didn't go down until after the diesel failed.
    On the other hand, Thomas Firth Jones "Two Rabbits" a modified 23' Wharram Hinemoa weathered Hurricane Blanche at sea in 1975.
    Safety is an illusion.
     
  7. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    masalai masalai

    Safety at sea is APPLIED COMMON SENSE, and all too many lack that "commodity"...

    Common Sense is improved with experience, and one must have a capacity to understand what one did wrong, ADMIT TO THAT, and learn and adjust from the experiences...

    In passage making one can not rely on "second chances"...

    A mono, a cat, and a tri, - - have different 'game-plans' based on a common theme... One is NOT better than another - DIFFERENT yes, and have advantages in some cases and disadvantages in other situations... Know your boat learn from others with more or different experiences...

    Be open minded... Learn to read the weather... Learn local conditions when away from home ports... Be Cautious as lives depend on your decisions and skills, legally and morally, when you are the Skipper...
     
  8. Mulkari
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    Mulkari Junior Member

    Since it seems that capsize is one of the biggest threats to offshore multihulls wouldn't it be possible to design some sort of device that automatically release sail control lines when critical heeling angles are reached? With modern sensors and electronics it should be relatively easy thing to do.
     
  9. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    " With modern sensors and electronics it should be relatively easy thing to do."

    That's what Donald Crowhurst was planning to do. Unfortunately he never got around to it. RIP.
     
  10. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    Hi Mulkari,
    My response - NO - Capsize is an issue for the stupid... Capsize is a cert if you cleat your sheets and go below for a coffee or a s**t...

    I am sitting in the same room as I type this reply, as an experienced skipper, (A lady no less) who used to tune racing yachts for the wealthy in Sydney some 40 years ago... - She is staggered at the stupidity displayed now-a-days... Her partner, Is equally flabbergasted - 'Silver Raven'...

    We all concur that the skipper (and crew) MUST have total control of the boat AT ALL TIMES... Definitely NO automatic or electronic devices to do or control what the skipper should control...

    Automated sailing is NOT what a sailor should do...
     
  11. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    I have yet to hear of a Buccaneer 24 capsizing or pitchpoling.
    I think this is such a weird thing given the number of them built and sailing all over the world, yet none have gone over :?::?::?: Can't believe that. :rolleyes:

    Samnz, with his grossly oversize sail rigged B24 "Green Death Trap" seems to have tried his hardest, but never managed it. :cool:
     
  12. Mulkari
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    Mulkari Junior Member

    Of course a sailor always should be in control however nowadays many boats are sailed by inexperienced crews. Even proffesional racing sailors when sailing shorthanded or singlehanded have to eat, have to sleep and to do so they have to let autopilot to take the helm. Having a device that release sails when autopilot sailed boat is about to flip would just add another level of safety.
     
  13. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    Hi All,
    "Duckie" the Yacht tuner is an avowed 'seat of the pants' sailor, and feels that maybe the Buccaneer 24 crews were experienced sailors, and the Buccaneer had limited "down below' options...

    Remember that the seaways have become almost snarled motorways for shipping cargo and the experienced sailors are now limited to round the buoys racing and the 'deliveries to the next venue' are done by paid professionals - - so sailing at the top end is a business for the wealthy - - and the lifestyle sailors fly under the radar cruising the backwaters and exploring as any good 'flanneur' finds enjoyable...
     
  14. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    "and feels that maybe the Buccaneer 24 crews were experienced sailors,"

    Most of the B24 sailors that I knew were certainly not experienced sailors.
    In fact the guy I sold my Bucc to tried to back out from the dock on outboard power alone, with the main up and mainsheet free. Of course when the boat was about 20ft out, a wind gust filled the main and slammed the boat back into the dock. No real damage was done, but the experience so spooked the sailor that he never tried to sail it again and re-sold the boat. :rolleyes:
     

  15. bruceb
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    bruceb Senior Member

    Power

    Obviously, you didn't sell him a big enough outboard:p B
     
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