My Folding Catamaran

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by billgow, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Yawn.

    Look, I hate to discourage anyone but the fact is there is a HUGE market for a GOOD folding cat and better minds than mine have been pondering the problem for decades.

    You've only to look at the numbers of, and resale on, Ian Farriers trimarans to see the market.

    The reality is that the only one I've seen that is practical is Mr Woods Wizard/Sango design. Pure genius that. Using the buoyancy to lift the hulls was a spectacular idea.

    I thought some time ago that if you enlarged Sango to 30' and added removable coachroofs that flipped around and nested inside the hull, and made them from a very light layup, low density foam and light glass so they could be manipulated by hand (they wouldn't be structural), that you would have the ultimate folding coastal cruiser. I note Mr Woods added removable roofs to sango a while after I thought of that so great minds work alike, and so does his and mine...:)

    The problem with all the folding and sliding beam systems is that in reality they become too expensive too complex and ultimately unreliable when they get full of sand or corroded or wet and slippery and what you end up with is a boat on hardstand. That's where virtually every folding or demountable multi has ended up apart from the swing wing and farrier style tris. There is the trailer to consider, net/deck attachments, the rig as Mr Woods mentions.

    It's good that people experiment, but until I see something that really is new and addresses the many problems I'm not going to get excited.

    Sorry to discourage you.
     
  2. billgow
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    billgow Junior Member

    I'm not discouraged. I may not have the best answer but I'm not discouraged.

    I've been following this folding cat for a couple years now.

    http://cat2fold.wordpress.com/

    It's presently in Mexico. You can read the blog of the owner by clicking on the link above. I also mentioned this in post #9 here. It works. If I had to use Rafi's system, I would. Not only does it work, the owner has finished well in several races with this boat as well.

    I'm not a designer. I'm willing to take criticism as long as it's focused. A general "it won't work" isn't going to take me very far. As a kid, I'd ask why until adults would run from me in screaming. Not much has changed there... ;)
     
  3. spidennis
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    spidennis Chief Sawdust Sweeper

    The only one discouraged is you dude, sorry to make you yawn so flip the channel for better entertainment ok? Maybe there's something more exciting in the Mono section? you never know.

    There seems to be two different kinds of people, those that try to figure out something, and then there's those that find everything wrong with something but not a single thought goes into making it work.

    I'd really like to see more positive thinking going on here. :confused:
    The name of this forum is boatdesign.net not "old designs are us"! :idea:

     
  4. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    The only reason I comment on threads like this is I feel obliged to bring to peoples attention what they are getting into before they blow heaps of money and time.

    I am an engineer and I've spent most of my working life doing research, design and product development. I've also spent far too many hours thinking through all the problems with folding cats, and other things pertaining to multihulls.

    I've seen person after person, not just in boats, come to me with what they think is a great idea ad I try to warn them of the mammoth issues they will face. I NEVER tell anyone not to do something unless it's unsafe, but they need a dose of reality to temper unbridled money and time into something that probably won't work. Go in with your eyes open and I say go for it, but know your climbing a mountain.

    If you had any idea how many hours and dollars it takes to really properly sort the tiniest details in designs and problems in research I think you'd really think twice about this sort of thing. I've seen so many people break and quit doing the sort of work I do. What usually happens with boats is people get it just about working and leave it there.

    People have been raving about cat to fold for some years now. Great that he's having fun and people are excited.

    How many have been built ? What do they cost to build ? What are they going to be like in 5, 10, 20 years time ? There are 20 year old F27's still sailing in blue water. They are probably worth more today than they were new, certainly most of his other boats are.

    What I really can't understand is why there aren't 200 sangoes in build right now. The only thing I can think of is they aren't big enough.

    Anyway, remember to have fun.
     
  5. Richard Woods
    Joined: Jun 2006
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I agree with guzzis3 and thank you for liking the Sango

    I know the super-shockwave isn't a folding boat - I've been on one. I suggested it because as a SAILING boat it is very similar to the proposed folder. But the folding boat will be much heavier and more expensive to build

    The cat to fold cost a fortune and was on the market for a long time. I suspect it was sold at a knockdown price. Just curious, but why didn't you buy it??

    If someone asked me to consult/design the boat I would say no. Because it is not a viable commercial proposition. Fine if you want to lose a lot of money, but such a waste of time and effort

    I know that no spouse is going to accept spending USD250,000 on a boat without a "proper" accommodation. They want a Lagoon 38. Few people really care about performance that much

    And don't go any further until you have really worked out how to get that mast up without a crane by yourself. How much will the mast weigh? I doubt if you can even move it on the ground by yourself, I saw a Contour 34 being assembled once. That was advertised as a trailable boat. But they used a crane to get the mast up.

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  6. spidennis
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    spidennis Chief Sawdust Sweeper

    UnSubscribed ......
    sorry billgow, but this is just too much of a mine field
    and nothing positive is coming from this thread.
    btw, I like the sango too
     
  7. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Corley epoxy coated

    I dont really understand this response there is nothing negative being said just a dose of reality. The members of this forum encourage more than they dissuade but simply ignoring design problems isnt helpful. Rather than cost and complexity maybe think about how you can make the demounting procedure work better when you unload it from the container. I've seen some designed where they package one hull upside down so you can have the hulls flare and sit into each others shape that way you could have decently wide hulls at the gunwhale that still performed ok. It's possible to work out geometry of a frame that could rotate the hull upright once out of the container and achieve the correct spread for the hulls to ease assembly.

    It's also possible to have a two piece mast that would fit into a container however the length your proposing would be best lifted with a crane although I suppose a biplane rig of shorter length could work. Then you start heading towards what a radical bay does already at that point.
     
  8. Fanie
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    Fanie Fanie

    I designed imho a pretty decent foldable trailable catamaran capable of getting launched by 2 people possibly1, the design was for up to 10m, the problem is always if you go to big boats the components become heavy.

    I might put up some details, most of the problems were sorted. I think Manie saw the model I built, perhaps he could offer an opinion on it.
     
  9. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Well said Corley, that's exactly the right attitude. By all means try, just keep your eyes open.

    I've seen a few people destroy themselves pursuing an impossible dream. They wouldn't listen to sensible advice. Conversely there are plenty of people who have realised wonderful things thinking outside the box.

    Just remember the old saying: how to make a small fortune in boat building...

    I like all your deignes Mr Woods, in fact I've been agonizing over a gypsy named vala (I think) currently for sale here in Brisbane. They gypsy would be a perfect boat for the boss and me and at $29k it's a steal, but I'm really off plywood boats now. I am determined my next boat will be plastic.

    The sango and gypsy are standouts imo, obviously for different reasons. I have wondered sometimes why you never drew a mini bridgedeck (jarcat, waller 620, little barrier etc). I have long thought a self build like the j5/6 but in strip or foam and rounded hulls would be a magic thing. The little barrier was carried on it's trailer on the bridgedeck allowing lar keels, while none but the jarcats has the cockpit stepped mast and the perfectly placed offset hatches so you can step down into the hulls using the bridgedeck. My J5 is such a perfectly thought out boat but for the chined ply construction and the trailer. 1900 x 1200 double amidships, 2 quarter berths, room for toilet and small galley, full 4'6" sitting headroom and great sailing all in a 16' x 8' package that's about 600kg on the trailer. I cannot help but think an updated design would sell.
     
  10. billgow
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    billgow Junior Member

    The timing wasn't really right and it's not exactly what I'm looking for. The following are my thoughts;

    I think a single, taller mast would provide much better performance. I believe, for a while, C2F went with something like this but Rafi preferred the ease of sailing with the biplane rig. I’d like to see how it performed with the single mast.

    I don’t want my scoops cluttered up with rudders and outboards. I’m a fisherman. Try and picture someone wiring a 400 Lb marlin in rough seas with all this gear.

    I like the forward control concept of the Chris Whites, Gunboats, Moxie 37s, etc.

    The folding mechanism takes up an awful lot of the hull interior.

    There’s not much to deflect oncoming water at the forward edge of the bridgedeck

    I like the cats I’ve seen with a main traveler overhead on a targa or hard bimini. I like the uncluttered and uncomplicated aspect of this. Remember the fisherman thing.

    Thinks I like;

    C2F actually exists and it works!

    It sets up fast

    It has a hard bridgedeck (no interest in bouncing around on tramps or getting soaked every time we go out).

    The size is right. I originally was going with an 11 meter but stretched it out a little when I had to slim down to fit a shipping container.

    Maybe something along the lines of a mission statement would help shed some light on what I’m trying to accomplish. I’m open to design ideas that get me to where I want to go;

    I have no interest in sailing purely for the sake of sailing. I have done some racing (started in club racing when I was 9 years old on the east coast) so I want high performance. I want to be able to single hand the boat. I’m absolutely serious about the fishing thing. I’m an avid fisherman and I expect this boat to be capable of tournament level competition, even if it never sees actual competition. I’m not a total Spartan. I’ll be using a lot of electricity and need every square inch of the PV panels I have planed. I’ll be using the boat in places where I really do not want to leave it out of my sight for any length of time and I really do intend to haul it all over the place on land. It does have to be trailerable and set up relatively quickly. I’m not dead firm on the container thing but that would sure help someone who wanted to ship with ease and be a huge advantage if these were to be built in a country other than where the owner resides. I couldn’t care less about lavish double berths, spacious living quarters, granite counter tops, 4-burner stoves, 4 individual heads, etc. Everything will be going on up on the hard bridgedeck anyway. Boats like the Lagoons make me cringe. If all I wanted was a semi-go-fast production cat, there are plenty of Outremers and Catanas out there. I’m more than willing to give up a lot of that luxury for something more portable and nimble.

    Picture 2 couples cruising (and fishing) New England during July and August, The Sea of Cortez and Baja September through November, Puerto Vallarta for Christmas, winter in Panama and the Inland Passage to Alaska the next summer. I have no interest in long ocean voyages. I just want to be in the places I want to visit. I’d rather be playing golf, playing with my grand kids, working, whatever and meet the boat when it gets to my destination. If you think about the cost to cross large oceans, it’s actually cheaper to just ship the boat. Factor in the time, provisions, wear and tear on the boat (and passengers)…

    I really appreciate the feedback. I'm not a designer and have no fantasy about building from my sketches. I will hire professionals to design and build this thing.

    Thanks!
     
  11. Timothy
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Timothy Senior Member

    Sounds like what I want except that I do my fishing with a snorkel and spear so it would need a substantial tender ad a place to put it . Would you fish from the hull transoms or the bridge deck?
     
  12. billgow
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    billgow Junior Member

    We'll be fishing from the bridgedeck and releasing from the bottom step on the transom/scoop.

    I'm glad you mentioned a tender. We want to have a rib in the 11' range and use one of the outboards that will be in wells in the compartment just forward of that step. These will slide up and down on a rack and when in the up position, seal off the bottom of the well to make the bottom of the hull fair.
     
  13. catsketcher
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    Don't forget ply

    Guzzi

    Don't forgo ply just on a couple of bad boats. There do seem to be a lot of Jarcats with ply problems - I am not sure why but in my experience ply is fine if it has been built well.

    Rather than the material itself check the Gypsy and see if it has been built well as a ply boat - all the fittings bedded in epoxy oversized holes, a thick coating of epoxy on the inside. You can go just as wrong with a foam boat - light laminates that crease and Duflex - balsa core.

    You can make a good boat with any of these materials as long as you build in a spirit the material requires. For a trailerable boat ply is probably great as such a boat will get heaps of knocks on the trailer and a soft core will get damaged.

    Billgow - you start hitting the square cube rule really fast in trailer boats. Even Farrier's 25 footers are often on moorings as the masts can be almost dangerous to put up. One boat on the lake got put on the mooring after the mast fell and almost hit the owners son. His wife demanded the boat stay with its mast up. As for the big boat you are asking for have a look at some tube boats - they aren't very feasible inside and long thin acccomodations don't work well - you need lots of walkway in a thin floorplan. . The problems in a folding cat are great and if you could build a big one it probably would have been done before. Then again if you have heaps of money I am sure someone will give it a go for you.
     
  14. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    My jarcat is an early one, and may not even be sheathed.

    I wasn't just judging them on that boat. Ply has some special problems for the boss.

    I must go have a look at that gypsy though.

    Back to the folding cat, I've distracted too much in this thread already.
     

  15. redreuben
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    redreuben redreuben

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