MX Next-new dinghy design

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Aug 18, 2012.

  1. SteveMellet
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    SteveMellet Senior Member

    Doug, my sincerest apologies.
    You are quite correct in what you say above.
    Sometimes your enthusiasm for an idea or concept leads you down the path of over-posting to the same thread, to the point where it is somewhat annoying as it can be mis-read as over-enthusiasm for someone else's untested concept, and you often take on the role of the defender of the concept.
    I also believe you may have rubbed some folks here up the wrong way by constantly finding great satisfaction in providing evidence which supports your theory that one type of craft is so vastly superior to another, there are many followers of this forum who are catamaran sailors, kitesurfers and windsurfers, who do not enjoy the fact that you belittle the craft they sail in order to support your theories.
    Example 1 - the moth is the worlds fastest sailboat under 20feet, once you have used some arbitrary USCG definition of a sailboat to support your side of the argument, while ISAF recognise both windsurfers and kitesurfers as sailing craft. Since I don't sail under the Racing Rules of the USCG, while I do under ISAF, my opinion is likely to differ from yours.
    Personally I don't mind if the moth is faster than the windsurfer I sail, I'm having fun doing 2nm downwind slalom races in 5 minutes flat at 24knot average speed, including the gybes. I'd actually LOVE to see a moth run our course in 35-40knots with 3ft short chop. Or you could bring one to the Langebaan Downwind Dash next January, the course record is 19minutes, course length is approx. 10nm, so average speed is around 31,5knots. Of course it usually blows 25-30knots at the start with wind against tide causing horrendous chop, many kiters and windsurfers drop out on the first or second leg, whereas I'm sure the moth will be right at home in those conditions.
    Example 2 - kitesurfers and windsurfers never really held the speedsailing world record according to you, because you refuse to acknowledge them as "sailboats" whereas the WSSRC doesn't stipulate that the record is for "sailboats", but that it is for the fastest sail-powered craft on water. You then argue that "on water" can't really be believed to be natural if the course is not equally available to all challengers, ie if it's not deep enough for Hydroptere then the kiters and windsurfers should not be allowed to use it.
    Please Doug, be realistic, all competitors are going to seek out or even create the perfect track for their specific craft to break the record - Yellow Pages used Sandy Point, kiters use Luderitz, windsurfers use the trench in France, Sailrocket used Walvis Bay. The WSSRC ratified every single one of those records yet you believe you are a higher authority than them and disregard records set by these ungodly "un-boats" in their man-made conditions.
    There are many other opinions you express which might prevent you from gaining the respect of others, I've listed the two that come to mind quickly, another is your fascination for monohulls being faster than multihulls - So what ? If a monohull can be created that is faster than a multihull across a wide range of conditions*, is easier to build, sail, launch and retrieve, and costs less, that would be a great benefit to high-performance sailing for everyone. If it can't meet all of the above objectives it won't sell in any significant numbers.

    * a 505, and even a 14ft plywood scow-like dinghy is faster than my 16ft catamaran in less than 2 knots of wind, which is why I say across a wide range of conditions. In less than 2knots of wind, I've come to understand why most yacht clubs have a pub.:D

    Doug, please don't take the above as negative criticism of you. Please just understand that it might be your continuous offensive against anything that doesn't fit into your way of thinking that might make others (like myself) respond aggressively and challenge your opinions, sometimes to the detriment of the designer who'se work you have chosen to support.

    Vlad, sorry you got caught in the crossfire.
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Steve, I stand by everything you criticise me for particularly that the Moth is the fastest sailboat under 20'-across a wide range of conditions! You may want to disregard the facts but you should be able to see the vast difference between a sailboat and a windsurfer or kiteboard. If you can't there are many others that can including the USCG.
    I don't think I ever made a disparaging remark about the speed records held by windsurfers or kites though others have. I think "sailing" in a ditch is absolutely 100% ridiculous but I sincerly do not mean to disparage windsurfers or kites-a more realistic setting for speed runs would gain both a lot more respect. And I think windsurfers and kites are remarkable sailing craft!
    Ah, I feel better now that Sailrocket( Inclined Rig Hydrofoil Proa ) has upped the ante tremendously-sailing in the ocean.
    I think that it is important to discuss things in a realistic way and I think I have gone out of my way to try to do that. Do you think setting "sailing" speed records in a ditch is a realistic assessment of the "sailing" characteristics of any craft? Now be realistic....
    Vlad, I apologize for drawing Mellets fire to you! Steve, its unfortunate that the comments can't be directed to the appropriate person instead of insulting a guest of Vlads stature. And I don't apologize one iota for my comments-which I honestly believe are a realistic assessment of the facts.
  3. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Maybe you have forgotten about this, as you seemed to have forgotten about Steve's sailing the MXRay and finding it slower than a Laser.

    Fazisi's rating came out 3 feet too high. Through the efforts of some, including a new keel from Humphreys and some major rig changes, the rating was brought down.

    How on earth could the original designers miss the rating limit by so much?
  4. Vlad M
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    Vlad M Senior Member

    OK, Let me explain you, but could you try for once to push your unexplained bitterness and aggression aside?

    Yes, Mx-Ray could be slower then Laser sailing upwind in some conditions, but it much faster reaching. Mx-Ray routinely sailed at 20+ and occasionally reached 25+, though I have only anecdotal evidence of the later. If you believe that "fast is fun", then Mx-Ray is more fun than the Laser.

    Even upwind Mx-Ray's performance depends on the way you handle her. Light and short boat doesn't like to be sail too close to wind especially in chop.
    But if you sail a bit lower, VMG immediately jumps up and in most conditions she's competitive with the Laser.

    But then again, first and foremost she was designed for the pure fun of sailing fast and her upwind capability was secondary.

    As for Fazisi - you had heard something of our saga, but certainly not enough to make an educated judgement (And why it's so tempting for you to be judgmental at all?)

    The thing is, Fazisi design was too sophisticated for her own good.
    Her aluminum structure was designed with extreme precision, but it required skill to build, which was lacking on the commercial ship yard where she was conceived.

    Those guys were used to dealing with +/- a ton or two, and eventually the crew had to take over the construction.They did a great job, considering it was the first aluminum boat they ever build, but unfortunately the hull came out too heavy... The only solution to keep the canter of gravity as required by the rules, was to change the keel for a heavier one.

    Luckily for us, Rothmans went through their own "keel crisis" just before us, and their old keel was available - and it saved the day!

    As result, Fazisi sailed more then three tons heavier then designed (almost one ton being overbuild, more than a ton of extra keel weight, plus internal ballast under the mast to balance the boat after the keel change)

    There was nothing wrong with Fazisi design, the problem was with her building process back in Soviet Union.

    Still she proved to be one of the fastest boats in the Southern Ocean with the second longest day run of 386 miles - despite her inexperienced crew and nonexistent budget.

    I don't know how would you feel in my place, but as Fazisi project leader and designer I feel pretty darn proud! And as I know, many designers whom I respect consider Fazisi to be one of the most innovative boats of the time.
    Bruce Farr was quoted as saying, "I don't know what the guys smoked when designing this boat, but I want some."

    Now imagine if you will, that the boat was built exactly as designed, had an experienced crew and a decent budget...
  5. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I'm afraid I see some things that don't add up. The build weight being too heavy was certainly not the only problem the design had. If that was the issue you would have rated lower, not higher. Also, you would not have been taking sail off to make the rating, you would have been adding sail to get up to rating.

    Maybe you should have asked someone like Butch, one of the designers of the DRUM that you thought was so slow (see attachment). Seems he know what was what before you did.

    Maybe something lost in the translation there. That quote generally means you think the person is whacked out. It is not a compliment...

    Built as designed it would not have rated in. So if it had 1 ton less structure, 2 tons less ballast, and the tiny original keel it would have needed to have even more sail taken off in order to get down to the limit. Since it was already uncompetitive in the light it would have been even moreso. Skip even admitted the ULDB approach was wrong, too slow in the light and upwind.

    Attached Files:

  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    A disgrace to civil dialogue

    "B", you should be very careful. You don't have many rep points because of your history of rudeness, harrassment, disrespect and uninformed criticism. I hope someone soon gives you the rep points you so surely deserve for your continued off-topic harrassment of Vlad Murnikov who is here to try to help people understand the MX-Next and Speed Dream 27. Your behaviour is among the worst I have ever seen on this or any other forum. You are an embarrassment.
  7. Vlad M
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    Vlad M Senior Member

    I've granted Paul B a detailed reply on his previous post, but it wasn't worth it. He's just bent on being mean and arrogant.
    It's pity that people like him are hijacking this forum that supposed to be an exchange of ideas and opinions.
    And badmouthing somebody without knowing what you are talking about is not an opinion...
  8. Vlad M
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    Vlad M Senior Member

    Hi Doug, thanks for you support!
    I'm really surprised by that guy's attitude... It's too sad people like him have a voice at this forum.
    By the way, what are rep points?
    Cheers, Vlad
  9. CT249
    Joined: May 2003
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Back on the technical side....

    Vlad, can you explain why the BMax section of the boat is so short in the fore and aft dimension? Standard practice is to get a long way forward upwind in the light/medium and a long way aft downwind in the breeze. This wing layout will not permit the skipper to get forward in the medium stuff upwind.

  10. Boat Design Net Moderator
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    Boat Design Net Moderator Moderator

    Thank you for directing this thread back to a discussion on the concept and ideas at hand. Please let's avoid any further personal attacks or jabs. If you feel the need to insult someone, please take it to another site. The opportunity to debate and discuss a concept shouldn't be lost to needless insults and personal jabs. Thanks.
  11. Vlad M
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    Vlad M Senior Member

    A simplified explanation goes like this:
    Imagine this boat as a twelve-footer with a bowsprit, and then replace bowsprit with a stretched forward nose.
    CG, mast placement, displacement are of that 12-footer, but the WL is much longer for better upwind performance and there's extra buoyancy to prevent pitch-poling while reaching.
    If you look at the boat this way, BMax is forward enough for upwind sailing and it extends all the way to the transom for reaching.
  12. Vlad M
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    Vlad M Senior Member

    Hi Steve,

    I would think that a sailor with a kin interest in boat design should be capable of distinguishing between the adolescent's sketch and real design. So I still don't get your comment referring to teenager's rendering, but let's move on...

    mxNext prototype is nearing its completion, will be tested, and in few months we will share the results - so let reserve our judgement until then.

    As for SpeedDream 27, I'd like to clear one important point - it's is not a production boat in common sense. Yes, we do plan to build a limited series of these boats and there are sailors who are interested in joining us in sailing, racing and further developing this amazing concept. But we have no interest in becoming the next J24 or Melges24.

    Just like in multihulls, where there is room for Nacra and F18 along with C Class cats, in monohulls too should be room for both J24 and Speedream. Our sport would only benefit from that.

    My second point is, we are not "mulihull-beaters". I do have great respect for multihulls and for any fast boats for that matter. Our goal is to eventually build the fastest offshore monohull. Whether this boat would be as fast or faster that multis - we'll just have to wait and see...

    Our skipper Cam Lewis is an accomplished catamaran sailor, and let me open a "big secret" here - SpeedDream rudders came from Alpha C Class cat.
    Magnus Clarke and Fred Eaton took interest in our project and gave us Alpha's rudders as a gift, and we look forward to do some testing with them in the future.
    So, in a way, there's a bit of catamaran DNA in our project...

    SpeedDream is an experiment, an attempt to find new ways of sailing fast, and we invite all sailors interested in speed to follow our progress, and if their checkbooks allow - join the fun!
  13. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I haven't sailed an MXray but I have raced against them in my 14ft plywood Stealth singlehander. And I know which was the faster boat

    I am interested to learn of some of the design decisions on this new boat. To me it seems very similar in concept to the RS300.

    Except that it is nearly half the weight. Indeed it is only 20lbs heavier than a Int Moth which is 3ft shorter all carbon, has fabric wings etc. So how do you achieve that weight?

    The curved solid wing idea was tried in International Moths in the early 1970's but quickly discarded. In part because the gunwale edge dug into the sailors thighs when hiking. And it was a very slippery deck with nothing to brace against. Most people want to hike in marginal planing winds sitting well forward and that doesn't seem possible even allowing for the fact that it is a "12ft boat"

    It's hard to tell from the sketches, but the daggerboard/rudder distance looks to be only about 3ft. Won't that make the boat "twitchy" to sail?

    The RS300 is not as popular as the builders hoped, in part because the speed difference between sailing it well and sailing it almost-well was huge. And too many people found that it was very tricky to sail.

    So for greater commercial success the builders developed less extreme boats that were still fast and fun

    I look forward to racing against this new design later in the year

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs
  14. Vlad M
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    Vlad M Senior Member

    It would be great to meet you on water Richard! Look forward to it.

  15. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Thanks for the reply. I note that classes as loosely-restricted, highly developed and short as the Moth and as loosely-restricted, highly developed and long as the Canoe feel that BMAX should be further forward to reduce transom drag etc. Even the A Class, which appears to have a finer bow than the MX, shows that getting weight further forward is faster.
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