MX Next-new dinghy design

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Aug 18, 2012.

  1. Vlad M
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    Vlad M Senior Member


    To Steve:
    If any teenager with simple software could produce a great boat, we probably would've seen more of them... It's not as simple as you think. Try yourself!
     
  2. Vlad M
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    Vlad M Senior Member

    When Steve Jobs was asked, why his new computer is way over budget and two
    years late, he replied,
    "It's not two years late, it's five years ahead of the time."
     
  3. Steve Clark
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    Steve Clark Charged Particle

    Your memory evades you.
    You already had production but were not satisfied with either the quality or the price.
    You had some slick video and a good marketing spiel and you loaned us a bat to test.
    We sailed it against a standard Laser and were impressed by the Laser, leading Chip to remark that before we undertake new products, we should make sure they are better than our old products. For my part, I first really focused on the need for the upwind and down wind speed of a boat to be somewhat in balance. The Ray might have been greatly improved by another round of sail and mast design, but the freestanding mast with and A-sail hanging off of it is very hard under any circumstances, and that one simply wasn't right. One of the hells of a strict one design is the inability to change and tune things as people learn how to sail the boat. About 10% of the performance never gets realized because you have to stop too soon and never get all the ideas tried out.
    SHC
     
  4. Vlad M
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    Vlad M Senior Member

    It's been a long time ago and I don't claim to remembering all the details.

    But what I do remember clearly, is that our meeting with you and Chip in a little diner on Rt.114 across from the Melville School took place sometimes back in 1994, long before Mx-Ray went into production. And it were you who told me that the concept of a single-handed dinghy with A-sail wouldn't work.

    Much later Dave Buemi, our marketing guy, talked to you and Chip and loaned you a boat to test. He told me later that by that time Vanguard was already developing a similar design on their own and wasn't interested in cooperating with us.

    Of course, Mx-Ray had shortcomings, she was just the first try after all. That's why we are developing mxNext now - to improve upon our experience.

    But imperfect as she might have been, Mx-Ray pioneered the way for all others that followed in her wake. And I don't mind others copying my ideas, it's flattering in away, but it would be nice, of course, if somebody admitted the role Mx-Ray concept has played in the single-handed skiff development.
     
  5. Steve Clark
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    Steve Clark Charged Particle

    Vlad:
    I don't think I was there because I was on sabbatical building Cogito in 1994. But what the hell....long time ago.
    I guess it all depends on how you define success and failure. The MXRAy didn't stay in production long, so success has to be treated as a guarded term. Many fine sailboats are dismal products and don't pay back the time and effort that went into their design and creation.
    When you get a prototype done, let's get together and sail. I will bring the IC and we will get a chance to compare notes. If you get something that sails that well and hits it's target price, you can then start the really expensive business of trying to get a class off the ground. It's about 50x as expensive as designing and prototyping the boat and 17x as difficult.
    SHC
     
  6. Vlad M
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    Vlad M Senior Member

    Sure Steve, It would be great to get together for some testing.
    Look forward to it!

    As for taking the class off the ground, that's entirely different story, and I know how difficult and expensive it is. We built over 300 Mx-Rays, but that was not nearly enough...

    If SpeedDream is successful, it should help somewhat, but in any case it would take a lot of time and efforts. But that not a reason for not trying...
     
  7. Vlad M
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    Vlad M Senior Member

    Envious that it's not your rendering, Alik?
    Why don't you try to do something on your own...
     
  8. Vlad M
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    Vlad M Senior Member

    I really wonder who you are Paul, and and why are you so bitterly envious?
    Just for you to know, "the most uncompetitive Whitbread Maxi of all time" had a second longest day run of 386 miles! Back in 1989 this was a tremendous achievement.
    Now, cards on the table - what have you accomplished that gives you the right to judge others?
     
  9. Vlad M
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    Vlad M Senior Member

    Drum wasn't too bad?... You really have no clew what you are talking about!
     
  10. Vlad M
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    Vlad M Senior Member

    FAZISI did't measure in, Paul? If she didn't, she wouldn't be in the race! So cut the BS, if you can...

    As for the output of an accomplished designer...
    Yes, I haven't produced a huge number of designs simply because it's boring for me to draw the same boat over and over again, with just minor changes. I's rather leave it to others...

    What I like to do instead, is to create exciting and innovative concepts, designs that most think are impossible - and then turn then into reality.
    And I'm good at that, really good.

    If you have problem with that.. well, that's too bad...
     
  11. Olga Noll
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    Olga Noll New Member

    I have an MX Ray and chose it specifically (over the RS 100 ) because of the simplicity of the rig design, weight to sail area , the history of it's exceptional speed for a mono hull and because of the delta hull shape ( yet with a very low wetted surface.) I walk my boats to the river with a dolly and in 10 minutes I can be underway and speeding along. The asymmetrical spinnaker with the bowsprit work fantastically. It was a dramatic break through. ( I built an AMF force 5 with a full mast head chute and spin pole. I was so busy rigging the chute that I lost track of any sense of direction.) Vlad made a major break through with spinnaker design, deployment and retrieval. 3 seconds and the thing is up and dousing is about as fast. The MX next must not be underestimated. This guy is a great designer.
     
  12. SteveMellet
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    SteveMellet Senior Member

    Vlad, read my post again : My comment was referring to the fact that most teenagers with some knowledge of a 3d program (and there are lots of both around) could produce a nice RENDERING of a boat. Whether that boat would actually sail well can only be determined once you have a floating version with sails on it.
    My comment was directed towards Doug, who usually points out these amazing concept designs which have not yet seen the water, and claims they are the next big thing, that they will be "multihull-beaters" and various other claims which at best are completely unrealistic.
    What I was basically saying is that : while the website for the MX Next is very impressive and flashy and will no doubt promote interest in the boat, the proof of concept can only occur when you sail it, race it against other dinghies, and evaluate it's performance over a period of time to establish what it's strong points and weak ones might be.
    Further to this I was, and remain, skeptical regarding the claims that the concept of the 27ft version will be a "multihull-beater". I will be a firm believer when I see it compete against F18s and Tornados and beat them convincingly across a wide range of conditions. Even if it acchieves this, will it have done so at a similar cost to these boats, remembering that some very good boat designs never get to acchieve the popularity they might deserve, if their production cost outweigh their performance gain. If the boat is 5% faster than a F18 at 400% the cost, the target market is going to be very small.
    Regardless I wish you success with all your projects and admire the courage to push forward with your ideas.

    Regards,
    Steve
     
  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ------------------------
    I don't think you can find a single quote by me where I say what you've accused me of! I might say the "whatever" seems to have the potential to beat this or that or that the numbers show that this or that could be faster than this or that.
    The fact that I am enthusiastic about a concept does not mean I subscribe to all the claims made for any particular project. I think Vlad is a very innovative guy and sure do think he as the capability to design a monohull that could beat multihulls its own length.
     
  14. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I guess in your opinion getting a podium finish among the Maxi fleet in the Whitbread is not so good.

    Drum Finished 3rd in the 85/86 race, just behind her near sister Lion. She actually beat Lion in 3 of 4 legs. If not for a terrible 1st leg she would have easily been 2nd.

    Leg 1: 5th
    Leg 2: 4th
    Leg 3: 2nd
    Leg 4: 3rd

    OA: 3rd


    Let's compare and contrast to the Fazisi record.

    Leg 1: 6th
    Leg 2: 10th
    Leg 3: 10th
    Leg 4: 13th
    Leg 5: 13th
    Leg 6: 8th

    OA: 11th


    So, if you think Drum was so bad, what does that make Fazisi?
     

  15. Boat Design Net Moderator
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    Boat Design Net Moderator Moderator

    Posts with rude remarks directed towards others have been removed. Let's please keep the forums polite to all other members and avoid further jabs and insults. Thanks.
     
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