Multi's in Syd - Hobart?

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Alan M., Dec 29, 2006.

  1. Alan M.
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 154
    Likes: 9, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 140
    Location: Queensland

    Alan M. Senior Member

  2. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Sydney-Hobart

    It SHOULD happen-even if it's just a multi race starting a day after the leadbellies...
     
  3. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,606
    Likes: 26, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 132
    Location: Portugal

    Vega Senior Member

    What a ride. That's a really wild horse:)

    It all depends on what you call a race. On Ocean races the French call a winner to the first that arrive, and then have class winners. They have professional Ocean racers that run indifferently on monohulls or multihulls. The boats belongs to the Sponsors and the sailors are the best in their trade. It is a professional scene.

    On the Sidney-Hobart you are still on the stage of Gentlemen racers, that means, rich men racing. On a situation like that, it is likely that the real time winner is the guy with more money:rolleyes: .
    To have and run a fast 40ft there, you have already to be a rich man. The best are employed by the rich skippers, they don’t run the boats, and the main classification is obtained after complicated and many times unfair calculations that have to do with fairness...a gentlemen’s thing:p .

    I believe that with time, world Ocean-Racing (like any adult competitive form of racing) will be a professional affair were the best will be paid to run fast boats and not a rich men affair, where the richer wins.

    When that time comes, the Sidney-Hobart will be a race on the world circuit, or it will maintain it’s actual status, and its importance will be far lesser. In that case, it will be a race for amateurs, out of the professional circuit and I am not saying that this option is the bad option. It is a thing for the Aussies to decide.

    I believe things are changing in the world of Ocean Racing. There is more Public interest in the races and that means more publicity, more Sponsorship and more money. Public is interested in spectacular boats and speed. Multihulls are spectacular boats and the fastest sailing racing boats (when they don’t break or capsize:D ) so you can be sure they will be a part of that professional racing scene.

    edited.
     
  4. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 1,701
    Likes: 78, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 467
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    The French can do what they want. They have a different society. They are a much larger nation with no annual race comparable to the Sydney Hobart, in terms of numbers of boats competing in a Cat 1 event.

    Why should we follow the lead of a nation that cannot get as many, or many more boats to its major events, despite having the enormous advantage of being able to race between Europe and the USA, the source of so many people and so much money. The French races take place on a bit of water between about 400 million people; the Hobart takes place on a bit of water between 24 million people. Despite having 16 times the population around, the French have fewer entries - and that is the path to follow?????

    If we followed that path and had the same number of entries compared to our population, we'd have about 5 boats in the Hobart. Not much of a spectacle!


    "The boats belongs to the Sponsors and the sailors are the best in their trade."

    In what "trade"? Are you are implying that they are better all-round sailors than other sailors? Where's your proof? How many former gold medallists are doing the "pro" circuit? Is there a single one? There are many Olympic-level sailors in conventional ocean racing. Actually when the Open sailors on Hugo Boss did the Sydney-Hobart last year, they got beaten; just as the Volvo crews did in 2000 (but not 2001).

    "I believe that with time, world Ocean-Racing (like any adult competitive form of racing) will be a professional affair were the best will be paid to run fast boats and not a rich men affair, where the richer wins."

    Most of the big boats in the Hobart are already professional outfits. Look at ABN Amro; Skandia; Konica Minolta; Alfa Romeo (not there this year); Nicorette; Grundig AAPT. The sponsors kick in a lot of money, which is why two countries with a population of just 24 million people can afford to have five 98 footers and two 90 footers.

    Some people get paid by owners, some get paid by public relations departments. The winner of the 2000 Singlehanded Transatlantic was dismissed by his sponsor - why? Because he wasn't a good TV "talent". For a champion to be sacked because he is not a good TV talent, because he's not good at being nice to the corporate guests, is pretty similar to being employed by a rich guy.

    All the successful sponsorship-seekers I know, including some involved in professional multi racing, say that finding a sponsor is not an easy business and that it depends enormously on luck (finding the right company when they are looking for that sort of promotion) and personal relationship with the company. That is not greatly different from sailing a rich man's boat. The difference with the model here is that you get some people getting sponsored, some paying their own way, and those without much money can sail older boats and smaller boats and getting the publicity from an overall win. As I mentioned, in 2000 we got onto the front page in the Sydney and Hobart papers, with a boat owned by a schoolteacher.

    "I believe things are changing in the world of Ocean Racing. There is more Public interest in the races and that means more publicity, more Sponsorship and more money."

    This has been said for about 40+ years. It still hasn't happened. After 40 years of failure to grow, surely it's time to realise the concept is flawed. Eric Tabarly became an enormous national hero winning the Transat in the '60s. That gave French ocean racing a kickstart, but it's still not an enormous participant sport.

    The Sydney-Hobart already has live TV coverage; regular crosses; and many thousands of spectators. It is already a huge race.

    Can I ask how much ocean racing have you done?

    Can I ask how much do you know of the Sydney-Hobart?

    How do you ignore the history of failure to grow in the "professional ocean racing scene"??? How do you ignore the shrinking of the singlehanded transat? How do you ignore the failure of The Race to happen again? How do you ignore the fact that the entries in the "pro scene" are tiny compared to entries in the "normal" ocean races?

    The sheer hard numbers provide proof that the "pro" scene is smaller and is not growing fast in the long term. The same with multihulls.

    Where are the facts, the numbers, the evidence, on which you base your opinions?


    I come from a multi family and sail multis. Multis have been welcomed by several of the major clubs here, but they still didn't end up sailing in significant numbers.

    We sail multis in multi races, windsurfers in windsurfer races, keelboats in keelboat races. If multis want to race to Hobart as they have done in the past, they are welcome to do so, but they have no more right to bulldoze into the Hobart than the windsurfers or 18 Foot Skiffs have to shove themselves into the Ronde Texel catamaran race.
     
  5. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,606
    Likes: 26, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 132
    Location: Portugal

    Vega Senior Member

    You can not put things like that. Europeans are a strange lot. We are all European, but much more French, Portuguese, British, German and so on. Danish race Danish classic sail events, French sail French races. The fact that some people from other countries and other parts of the world sail in French races is a good sign, but still an exception.

    French Ocean races are not European races, they are French races. I believe that more than 90% of the “Route du Rhum” racers are French (I have no patience to count them) and that race is a relatively new race, compared with the Sidney-Hobart and it has not yet the same world projection.

    So your numbers are not right. France has about 3 times more population than Australia.

    The most international French Ocean race is the Mini Transat. It is not raced from France to the USA, but to Brazil.

    They have much more candidates for that race than the ones that they can safely put in a race (it is not a race along a shore). They have to qualify in smaller races, to have a place. This year, I believe we will have a record of people from different nationalities, including Australia, New Zealand, USA ....and Portugal; 17 nationalities in all. All the possible places (75) for that race were booked in 15 days, more than 6 months before the race and they have a long waiting list.

    I was not talking about the present situation but about the Future. And I believe that, for the good or worst, the Future is globalization. Yes, we still will have a lot of regional classic races for amateurs, but we will have a world scenario, for the fastest ocean boats and sailors.

    Of course, I am not talking of dinghy races, for those the globalization is already a reality (Olympics, World Championships) but of Ocean Races with big boats.

    As I have said to you, we are talking about a French scenario.

    The best ocean racers among the French. Olympics and dinghy racing have nothing to do whit it. Only by accident a dingy sailor is interested in bigger boats, or Ocean races.
    The Best Ocean French sailors come from many amateur and semi-amateur ocean racing events, being the most remarkable the “Figaro”. And yes, they are the best, or at least the best that really want to become professionals.

    What you have in the Sidney-Hobart, as you described it, is a semi-professional event.

    It seems clear to me that a young French talented Ocean racer has a lot more opportunities to become a professional racer with his own boat (even if that boat belongs to a sponsor).

    For having an international racing scene you have to have Globalization, I mean, the economy and the multinationals. This is happening now, not 40 years ago. The money that was generated by large multinationals (the sponsors of such events) 40 years ago, is a small fraction of the money they generate now.

    About the life coverage, I believe you are talking about Australia. I have cable TV with the main European sports channels and I have tried...but they didn’t show the race. I believe that Wednesday we will have a small cover about it, on Eurosports.

    Of course you can, even if I had already said that somewhere, I have only made some non serious club racing and this only at a very respectable age. As racing, I have done motorcycling and I have seen the motorcycle scene I was in, change from amateur to professional, from national to European and world series.

    Does this make me less or more able to have an opinion? The globalization of a series, car, motorcycle or boat has only to do with money and international public interest.

    Certainly it is the interest of any good sportsman to compete with the best worldwide, or don’t you think so?

    As for what boats are concerned, it seems clear to me that world Public interest is on big, fast and spectacular Ocean races, raced in big and spectacular boats and in races that are hard and constitute human challenge. To have all this, and to satisfy public interest, Sponsors and professional competitive sailors, some time in the Future, we will have a professional Oceanracing World championship.

    About the number of boats in international races, less boats doesn't mean necessarily that they are less interesting. From my point of view (and I believe from a public interest, even in Australia, as those headlines in the big Australian newspapers seem to demonstrate) a Sydney-Hobart raced by 30 boats capable of fighting for what it is called “Line honors” would be more interesting than one that has 70 boats, but only five with the possibility of winning the race in real time.

    I understand that the sailing Australian community has another opinion, and as I have said, it is for the Australian to decide what kind of race they want, but I much doubt that decision will be only in the hands of the sailing community. I believe Sponsors (and public) will have also a strong vote on that issue.

    About the shrinking of the Transat, I believe you are speaking of the Ostar transatlantic race, now called Transat (every 4 years). The shrinking you are talking about corresponds to what I was talking about: the passage of that race from an amateur race, with some professionals, to an almost all professional race.

    That race had a record of 125 entries in 1976, but the really competitive boats were very few. Most “racers” raced with cruising boats. There were even some Vailant on that race. After that edition the number of amateurs has diminished but the number of fast boats and professionals has been on the rise, with some fluctuations due to economical crisis.

    Looking at the past ten years, we had 66 boats, in 1992; 55 boats in 1996; 95 boats in 2000; and 37 boats in 2004.

    It looks that the 2004 race was less interesting, but that race is the first one only for true racing boats: Open boats, 60 and 50ft monohull and cats, Imoca and Orma Racing boats. Actually they had more true racing boats than the ones in the previous race.
    At the 2000 edition they had 7 Orma open60 and 19 Imoca Open60. At the 2004 edition they had 12 Orma Open60, 6 Orma Open50, 15 Imoca Open60 and 4 Imoca Open50. There were not more entries on the Imoca Open60 because the Vendee Globe was also that year and some considered that it would be risky to make both races.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-Handed_Trans-Atlantic_Race

    This Transat, previously known as the Ostar, was a British race and only became French by adoption due to the French domination. There are other French Transats, the Transat Jaques Fabre (every 2 Years) and “La route du rhum”(every 4 years). On those we can see also that the entries have been always increasing.

    “La Route du Rhum”: 1994, 24 entries; 1998, 37 entries; 2002, 58 entries; 2006, 86 entries.

    http://www.routedurhum-labanquepostale.com/en/s02_course/s02p08_historique.php

    “Transat Jaques Fabre”:1995, 11 entries; 1997, 18 entries; 1999, 20 entries; 2001, 33 entries; 2003, 38 entries; 2005, 35 entries. (this race is only for Open race boats, 50 and 60ft cats and monos)

    http://www.jacques-vabre.com/pages_uk/accueil_uk2005.htm

    But the queen of all French races is the “Vendee Clobe” (every 4 years), the solo, non stop race around the globe raced in Imoca Open60s.

    The first edition 1989/1990, 13 entries; 1992/1993, 14 entries; 1996/1997, 16 entries; 2001/2002, 24 entries: 2004/2005, 20 entries and for the 2008/2009 (more than two years from now), it is said that they have already all possible inscriptions booked (27).

    http://www.vendeeglobe.org/uk/home
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendée_Globe

    So, it looks that in what regards professional top ocean racing on the French scene, numbers are not smaller, quite on the contrary. And you can also see that the number of non French skippers interested in these races and competing in them, is increasing. It is said that Mike Sanderson is very interested in the next Vendee, even if he probably won’t be able to make it. He would lose a lot of money. There are a lot of people that want him badly on other projects, team projects.

    So Ct, what do you say? We will wait 10 years and then we’ll continue this chat?

    Then it will be possible to see if I am right, or wrong:p .

    Have a nice year

    Paulo
     
  6. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 1,701
    Likes: 78, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 467
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    Even if the Danes and Americans aren't interested, these events are still the major events in a country of 60 million people, and the Transat/OSTAR starts from another country of 60 million, which also created the first 2-man race. It wouldn't be surprising if major events, held every four years from countries with a combined population of 100 million+, were much bigger than the annual event of an isolated country of 20 million. In fact, the much smaller country gets about as many boats every single year. Of course, the main British event (Fastnet) gets a couple of hundred every two years. If the British, who are among the keenest sailors, are not interested in a style of racing that they created, surely we must ask why.

    As you say, not even the other Europeans or the Americans have followed the French in their love of the "pro" racing scene. If the other countries have not adopted this style of racing in many years, why will it suddenly become popular now? The modern boats are spectacular, but boats like Manureva and Club Med were arguably much more spectacular in their day. Communications have improved, which also means that watching a rating race can be enthralling.

    "Only by accident a dinghy sailor is interested in bigger boats, or Ocean races."

    This may be true in the French pro scene. Here, the reality is vastly different; many of our recent Olympians also sail offshore. The oldest and smallest boat in the Hobart was skippered by a Star national champ who had finished 2nd in the 18 Foot Skiff "worlds". The oldest and second smallest boat in the Coffs Harbour race (the other big race here at the moment) has an Olympic gold medallist in 470s in the crew. This blending of some of the world's best dinghy sailors and the offshore sailors is a great thing. It happens at all levels; I've had races where everyone on my boat has been a national small-boat champ and in the top 4 of our national dinghy "champion of champions" event.

    Re numbers in the "French" races; as you said yourself, ("The shrinking you are talking about corresponds to what I was talking about: the passage of that race from an amateur race, with some professionals, to an almost all professional race") the shift to professionals makes the races SMALLER. Why is that a benefit? Only to the couch potatoes (and possibly not then)

    The figures I can find for the OSTAR (to use a convenient tag) show that entries were; 5;15;35; 55 ;125 (limit of permitted entries, 600 enquiries!); 90; 95; 67; 58; (NOT 100, according to the organising club); 26; 37. That shows a general drop from '72 (I may have missed a race there).

    Route de Rhum started with 38 entries; went to 52; then 33; then 31; then the races you mentioned. The increase has come since the length of boats was restricted; the race was actually created because of the length restriction on the OSTAR, yet restrictions were later brought in. Why? Because the "pro" racing on unrestricted length boats was not practical. The increase in R d R entries has come as the OSTAR declined; the total number of boats in the two events is not strong.

    The other point is that there are other races that have died in the time the races you mention have grown. The TJV is a follow-on from the earlier Two-Handed Transatlantic race run by the RWYC. It attracted 81 boats in 1981; 55 boats in 1986; 37 boats in 1991; then the TJV started. So two-handed Transatlantic racing has declined from 81 boats to 35 over the years.

    "It seems clear to me that world Public interest is on big, fast and spectacular Ocean races, raced in big and spectacular boats and in races that are hard and constitute human challenge."

    But as you said yourself, not even other Europeans, and certainly not Americans, are interested in the Atlantic races, which feature the ingredients you mention and have since the days of Club Med and Royale, the 85 foot wingmasted cat. Why, then, will they suddenly become interested now?

    Vendee Globe has grown, but only as the other singlehanded round-the-world race, formerly the BOC or Around Alone, has shrunk. It has 17 boats in '82, 25 in '86 and '90, 20 in '94, 16 in '98, 13 in 2002, and about 7 in 2006. There has been a shift towards the non-stop race, and a drop in total numbers racing alone around the planet. I don't think a drop in the number of solo boats racing around the planet shows that that sector of the sport is growing.

    The classic example of the public's lack of understanding, to me, came after the 2000 singlehanded transatlantic. I was in the press centre, full of French media and basically no-one else, when an American TV crew came in. "Where are the ships?" they asked. "There they are" said one of the media crew (Marcus Hutchinson, I think) pointing to the brightly painted wingmasts of the 60 foot trimarans. The Americans were confused. After a bit more conversation, it turned out that they were searching for the Tall Ships race, which was also coming into town. They had seen the masts of the tris, and thought that they were looking at the tall ships. They had never heard of the OSTAR.

    So after 50 years of OSTARs finishing in Newport, the race has attracted so little interest from the general public that not even the local TV crew, coming from a sailing town, could tell the difference between an ORMA 60 and a square rigger, and don't even know the ORMA 60s exist.

    The Mini Transat IS thriving. It is also not sailed in big spectacular boats.

    You said "it is said that Mike Sanderson is very interested in the next Vendee, even if he probably won’t be able to make it. He would lose a lot of money. There are a lot of people that want him badly on other projects, team projects."

    If a star like Sanderson will "lose a lot of money" doing the Vendee, then it cannot be such a professional style of race, surely? If he would lose money by moving from other projects, then surely it is those projects (like the Hobart he did last week) that are his real professional base. Many of the Hobart pros make a very good living, they are true professionals.

    As I have said, the difference may be between the view of a spectator, and the view as a sailor. As a sailor I believe that sailors, not couch potatoes, are the most important thing in the sport.

    Happy new year
     
    1 person likes this.
  7. BOATMIK
    Joined: Nov 2004
    Posts: 296
    Likes: 15, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 190
    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    BOATMIK Deeply flawed human being

    Great stuff by both of you here!!! Lots of knowledge about each scene.

    Thanks a lot

    MIK
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. rob denney
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 756
    Likes: 111, Points: 43, Legacy Rep: 436
    Location: Australia

    rob denney Senior Member

    G'day,

    Quite a few years back I raced to Hobart on a 12m tri with 4 crew. We waited outside the harbour and started 30 minutes after the first racers had passed us. Overtook them in a couple of hours and led the fastest boat (80' maxi, 25 crew) over 99% of the course, being overtaken in the Derwent River, before bringing in the new breeze and shy reaching under spi at 18 knots up to the becalmed maxi. This was by far the most exciting photo of the race, but never made it into the media. When they got the new breeze, they went one way, we went the other and lost by 8 minutes.

    The owner of the tri was a Tasmanian. We got zilch mention in the press and were banned from tying up at Constitution Dock. I completely understand why the monos do not want multis in the race and why multis would be nuts to tag along in a cold, upwind race against people who do not want them to be there.

    My take on what interests the public is that all they care about is the race. Most people cannot tell the difference on tv between a 100 footer with canting keel at 30 knots and a 30 foot lead mine at 7 knots. In fact, the 30 footer probably looks more impressive as the waves look bigger and the spray flies relatively higher. What interests non sailors, (and many sailors) is the winner. Does not matter how big or expensive, what is interesting is the race and the result, not the competitors and certainly not the time it takes, although this gives the media something to hang a story on. Therefore, it makes sense to me to return ocean racing to it's origins. Sensible small boats, lots of entries and excitement for the spectators from the closeness of the racing.

    regards,

    rob
     
    1 person likes this.
  9. ron17571
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 74
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: arizona

    ron17571 Junior Member

    the utoob wouldnt load for me,anyways ive always hated rich guys in insanely expensive boats with hired skippers.give me single class stuff,sunfish,lasers and beach catamarans.the american public only likes things with engines that go really fast,sailing is done by a very small percent of the population,involves thinking and exercise.
     

  10. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
    Posts: 1,701
    Likes: 78, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 467
    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member


    Thanks Rob, and I think you're dead right. :D :D
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.