Multihull Structure Thoughts

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by oldmulti, May 27, 2019.

  1. oldmulti
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    oldmulti Senior Member

    The Perspective 38 trimaran is listed as “a full carbon very fast cruise” trimaran. Please reserve your judgement on the “cruise” part until you see the numbers. On one drawing there is a partial polar diagram of sailing speed versus wind speed that “maybe” associated with this trimaran. It indicates that in 13 knots of true wind speed this tri can peak at 20 knots boat speed on a broad reach. The boat numbers below indicate that is distinctly possible.

    The Perspective 38 trimaran is 39 x 27 foot that weighs 3600 lbs and displaces 5000 lbs. Yes, a 39 foot cruiser that can carry 1400 lbs payload. Hmmm. It carries a 52 foot carbon fibre rotating mast that can is 2 part for container transport. The upwind sail area is 1140 square foot upwind and 1640 square foot down wind. The main hull has a 11.5 length to beam ratio. The designer, Philippe Roulin, spent 15 years as a designer with VPLP (think 60 to 120 foot ocean racing tris and cats as well as many production cruisers) so the above numbers can be possible. The Perspective 38 trimaran will be a rocket ship if the displacement numbers are real. The advertising information says its been designed to sail up to 20 knots on one float under full control. Hmm, what happens over 20 knots?

    The tri has axe bows and very deep daggerboards in the floats. The design info says its draft is 6.5 foot, I am assuming that is over the rudders because the daggerboards fully down measure 10.5 foot draft when flat. When sailing on one float the draft would be over 12 foot. Be careful where you sail, no shallow water please. The reward of these deep boards would be excellent upwind performance. The cost would be the expense of these carbon fibre foils if you broke one when you hit bottom.

    The 38 can be dismantled for transport and has carbon fibre cross beams. The remainder of the structure I suspect is a foam carbon fibre and epoxy. The structural engineering of this tri would be very good. To give a feel as to what is possible the OMRA 60 tris have 600 gsm high strength carbon fibre in high strength epoxy either side of a 20 mm Airex foam core. This tri is one third the weight of an OMRA 60 tri so the layup could be EG 400 gsm high strength carbon fibre and epoxy either side of 15 mm PVC foam.

    The accommodation is 2 optimistic double berths, seating a table and a small galley. Yes, you could cruise for a few weeks with 1 or 2 others as long as they didn’t eat or drink much. I suspect this tri is a real short handed ocean performance machine with some accommodation but I will leave it up to you to judge if it is a cruiser.

    This tri is a design study but I suspect it is a very viable boat. The jpegs give the idea. The web address is Trimaran 38ft Fast Cruiser full carbon by Perspective Design http://www.perspective-design.com/EN_Trimaran_38ft_Fast_Cruiser.html
     

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  2. oldmulti
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    oldmulti Senior Member

    F40 XX catamaran is a cruising cat of 39.4 x 23.5 foot that displaces (I suspect weighs) 17,500 lbs. The carbon fibre fixed mast carries a 672 square foot mainsail, a 350 square foot self-tacking furling jib and a 727 square foot code 0 make the upwind sail area. The length to beam of the hulls at the waterline is about 8 to 1. The hulls have low aspect keels drawing 4.3 foot. There is no fore beam but a prodder for the forestay.

    Giovanni Ceccarelli, who is the naval architect and drew the waterlines, said “hulls designed for low drag with a low wet surface with volumes distributed longitudinally, in order to minimize pitching, while maintaining excellent stability”. Translation, a high prismatic hull with a full stern and moderately full bows. For those who don’t know, Giovanni Ceccarelli was principal designer for two Italian America’s Cup campaigns, Lake Garda challenge boats and many production boats. He also teaches Naval Architecture and Yacht Design at the University of Forli. His engineering skills are very good especially in composite construction.

    For comparison the F40 XX is up to 5,000 lbs lighter than many other 40 foot cats like the Lagoon 40 or Leopard 40. The hulls have a slightly better length to beam ratio and the rig carries slightly more sail. The F40 XX should perform better than most production 40 footers but it will not match a Grainer, Schoinning etc 40 footers.

    Why is this boat of interest? The accommodation plan gives the indication. This is about as large an amount of accommodation you can pack into 39.4 foot and still have reasonable cruising boat performance. The interior designer (yes, its normal now) Ilenia Indaco has designed 3 layouts with two, three and or four cabins. Superfluous spaces, such as corridors have been eliminated, with steps from the central cabin to the individual cabins, optimizing the interior space. The full beam bathrooms allow large shower cubicles etc. The integration of the inside and outside space is due to the large aft opening of the central cabin with the cockpit. The large windows, glass main cabin doors and glass hexagons in the main cabin roof provide a lot of light to the interior. The wide individual hulls and sterns allow generous double berth cabins with ensuites. If you require more accommodation than this boat provides for a family then good luck paying for the maintenance bills etc.

    The cats’ structure is not specified but Giovanni Ceccarelli is likely to have specified a foam e-glass build with biaxial and triaxle cloths. Hopefully in vinylester resins. I have only shown the 3 cabin accommodation layouts in the jpegs. The web site shows the other layouts. Interesting cruiser that is about as big as a family would need.

    Video (in Italian) of the boat at a boat show is at F40-XX https://www.deltacatamarans.com/it/catamarani-vela/fx40
     

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  3. catsketcher
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    One part that is not shown by the numbers is the rounded bottom of the amas. A boat like this one with very flat ama bottoms will be rather tiring to sail. I have only sailed on one like this (an ORMA 60) so I may be wrong, but even 90 degree angle floats bottoms can be hard to live with in a rough sea.

    The problem occurs when you are chilled and throttled back. Then the windward ama can touch seas to windward. This can cause lots of shaking and banging. The solution is to get the thing fired up and leaning over. So if the wind goes up or down you may be working hard - shaking in and out reefs.

    One of my favourite tris - the Chamberlin Cirro - had very veed floats. Robin Chamberlin has raced and cruised huge numbers of miles and knows that often speed comes from the crew being calm and happy. So although this tri will have a high top speed and be a gun around the track, it may be quite hard to live with when cruising and strangely slower if you get worried by the banging.
     

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  4. catsketcher
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    Okay Old Multi - I must be a grump, there are some interesting things about this design, not that I would want it in a million years but the Ikea furniture lying around is interesting. I did have a pine table on the bridgedeck for about 10 years and the little coffee thing is going to go rolling but the book shelf - with no fiddles. I mean - really? The interior designer should still have someone who has gone offshore run their eye over the details.
     

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  5. oldmulti
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    oldmulti Senior Member

    Catsketcher. We are talking about a cat that being sold to spouses as much as sailors. Interior designers are about style and making the boat as attractive as possible to those who hold 50% of the voting rights on the purchase of a boat. Lagoon et el found that eg island double beds increased the number of cats sold. To get island beds with partial walkways down the sides of the beds you had to widen the hulls to about 7.5 to 1 length to beam, to ensure a shower per day you require 50 liters of water per person per day, big tanks and water makers, big screen TV's required, airconditioning or sailing in warm climates and finally big displacements.

    I fully agree with you sailing a cat like this in the bottom half of Australia would require a lot of fiddles, straps or bolts to hold things down. The real problem here is a production boat is often sold as a cruising dream not a sailing reality. The longer you sail in distance and time, the less the fancy stuff you want on a boat as fancy stuff requires the most maintenance. As Tony Grainger once told me, give him a simply fitted out good design with two compasses, some spare rope and anchors and he would go cruising any time. Yes, the F40 xx needs to be upgraded internally with fiddles, straps etc for serious ocean cruising use but the underlying design is good.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
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  6. oldmulti
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    oldmulti Senior Member

    The Perspective 50 catamaran is again designed by Philippe Roulin. The cruising cat is 51 x 28 foot weighing 16800 lbs and displacing 21300 lbs. The mast is 66 foot carrying 1560 square foot sail area upwind and 2300 square foot downwind. The hull length to beam at the waterline is about 12 to 1. The cat has deep carbon fibre daggerboards and rudders.

    For comparison, Schoinnings Arrow 1500 weighs 19,000 lbs and displaces 25,000 lbs. The Grainger Raku 52 weighs 20,000 lbs and displaces 26,500 lbs. Both have slightly less sail than the Perspective 50. Translation, the Perspective 50 will probably be slightly faster than the Arrow and Raku.

    The Perspective 50 is structurally optimised with fully infused foam sandwich composite. Again, the designer Philippe Roulin, spent 15 years as a designer with VPLP so the above numbers are possible. Now, the reason that Phillippe has designed a cat that weighs 4000 lbs less than 2 other designers who normally design “lighter cats” than average comes from 2 factors.

    One, 15 years of working with VPLP would teach you a lot. VPLP spend thousands of hours designing an OMRA 60 tri, they had/have material companies providing test data galore on their materials and test panels were made by VPLP and builders to ensure that the designed loading limits were possible to manufacture in the real world. The other side is any design/material faults of many on the water racing and cruising design would be a learning experience for everyone in VPLP. Result, Phillipe Roulin probably has forgotten more than most designers have learnt and can design a cat with closer structural tolerances than many designers. This is NO criticism of other designers, they are generally very good at what they do, but the more information and education you get the better you are at something. EG Malcolm Tennant designed, developed and perfected the CS power cat hull shape that is now used by designers globally.

    Second. Grainger, Schoinning etc design for the home builder market. Even if the boat is built from a kit or from the basic materials home builders do not always build as the designer intends. The result is the home designers need to have some “extra beef” to allow for an incorrect build. Also, the home builder designer has less understanding of how the builder intends to use their boat. EG A sailor may think running onto a sandbar at speed should cause no problem, because he used to do it in his Lagoon 38 that has 12 mm thick solid glass hull bottom/low aspect keels. Also home builders are famous for “adding” extra water tanks, heavier bigger engines, freezers etc adding extra loads on the structure. All this needs to be anticipated by home builder designers. As Phillip Bolger, a mono designer, said “If the boat doesn’t trim correctly it’s the designers fault no matter what the builder did, if the boat leaks it’s the builders fault no matter what the designer specified.”

    The Perspective 50 is designed for a specific client who hopefully understands this is a performance cruiser, not a knock around cruiser. Like all things in life, the higher the performance the more carefully the item has to be treated. It applies to cats as much as it does to Ferrari’s.

    The accommodation layout is fairly straight forward and simple. The bridge deck is relatively short but still provides a good size main cabin with galley and dinette.

    An interesting performance cruiser. Sorry about the limited jpegs but I don’t know if this design is being built.
     

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  7. catsketcher
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    I love this thread Old Multi but I would caution anyone to use sexist stereotypes in boat sales. I closely know about 7 women who sail. My wife likes camping in a backpacking tent doing hikes of up to 10 days, my daughter-in-law snow shoed the alps for 6 weeks straight. They both have liked living on our modest cat. My friend Annette co skippered her race yacht to Osaka and sailed it with a female crew in the Melbourne to Hobart (and delivered it back as skipper), Karen works on her Wharram alongside Glen, and Mara is one of the best sailors I have crewed with. Women can be talked to, in boat sales, in terms of safety and all round capability.

    I get the mantra of "talk to the wife" when it comers to boat sales. There was a thread on Seabreeze where people lamented that their wives would not sail with them. I ventured that the adventurous partner, the one you met out bushwalking, kayaking, or abseiling or cycling, almost certainly would.

    There has been an arms race in terms of interiors and exteriors over time. What would have been seen as luxurious two decades ago - no leaks and reliable electronics, solid usable galley underway, (a la Searunner 40) is now old hat. The relentless march of consumerism into yacht design is the direct anathema to why I sail - to remove myself from the need to compete and be sold stuff - to clear the head and realise the truths in life.

    So constant carbon things, bigger things, more expensive things and more lose me. How can you turn up to a village where people have nothing but smiles and a way of life worth learning from, when your head is into such a schmick interior there is no way you would let the locals inside? My focus on the bookshelf is because this is stand out bad design. If this is allowed, what else was let through when this boat was built? It would need careful scrutiny before purchase.

    PS - I really do like the thread. My opinions are my own and in no way meant to denigrate your posts.

    cheers

    Phil
     
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  8. oldmulti
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    oldmulti Senior Member

    Phil, don't worry, your words are valued and not taken personally. Yes, we have slightly differing view points but I can assure you my ideal boat would be a simple 10 meter performance cruising cat without many modern inconveniences. I agree, when you turn up to a remote location, people are interested in you not the thing you turn up in. Also my apologies to all if I come across as sexist. The reason I use the term "spouse" is that it can mean male or female and hopefully the relationship is good enough that the spouse has equal voting rights. Also I know several ladies who are the "driving forces" of cruising relationships with their boyfriends/husbands who come along.

    As to the constant carbon thing. Modern designers again design to meet their dream market. As Jeff Schoinning said to me one day, "he sells dreams as well as plans", result designers specify materials and concepts that will provide the "perfect" high performance cruiser if that is what the client wants.

    Phil, you have sailed far on many good designs and you know what is really required, many do not have your experience or skills. Trying to persuade some people that a polyester solid glass or polyester foam glass or a WRC strip plank cedar epoxy hull is a very sensible solution for a good boat is difficult. The illusion that carbon fibre is required in a design is wide spread even though high strength S-glass can match and occasionally out perform carbon fibre in the right applications. Everyone works to their own set of requirements and aims.

    The aim of this thread is to show as many variations of hopefully good multihulls (and a few other interesting items) as possible. There is no one solution, just a solution that suits you.
     
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  9. catsketcher
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    Cheers OM. As for Carbon and stuff, maybe I should get right into it. On Sunday I was sailing Kankama to Sydney with my son who is cruising her for the next couple of months. Old symmetrical off the bows worked a treat on the square, great set up using 30 year old kite. Then pulled main up on the square (gotta love the no spreader rig) and we broad reached in - hit 19.9 with all their cruising gear on. Damn! I have only every hit 20 around Jervis on my own (with lots of set) and would have loved her to break the barrier, As it was we averaged about 10 over the chart for the 38 ish miles on my simple and easy to run liveaboard. After 20 years I need no more, but maybe a watermaker (and 300kg less water) and some carbon would get her over the 20 knot hump.

    cheers

    Phil
     
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  10. fitness4mind
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    fitness4mind New Member

    Hello mr. oldmulti and many thanks for the tremendous amount of information you gathered on this magnificent topic. I think this is the most valuable topic I have ever read on any forum on the internet.

    This is my first intervention on this forum, after many years of reading and learning. I decided to write an answer here because I was involved in starting the build of the Elf 26 catamaran in Romania, 2 years ago. So, with your permission, I will shortly tell the story, from the point of view of the multihull enthusiast.

    In 2017 my friend, who is the current builder of the boat, asked me about the build of a trailerable catamaran, for his own use. It had to be amateur built, relatively easy to trailer and it should have a great amount of seaworthiness.

    Being a huge fan of Richard Woods designs, I suggested him to take a look at his designs, and told him if he would consider buying an used production mold and build a fiberglass boat.

    He studied in detail mr. Woods website and decided for the Elf 26, and the next year he went to UK and bought the 3 molds for the Elf 26 - the hull, the deck and the interior floor molds.

    The molds arrived in my hometown Galati (which is a center of fiberglass boat building here in Romania), and we started to wet-sand and polish them, to achieve a shiny surface finish.

    After waxing the molds, we started the lamination of the hulls and decks, which were made the next way: white NPG gelcoat, 225 CSM, 450 biaxial+225 CSM, 10 mm Divinycell foam , 450 biaxial +225 CSM, the resin used being vinylester.

    The foam was used only on the sides of the hulls and on the decks. The bottom of the hulls with the LAR keels were solid glass. In some location, the foam was replaced with plywood, for example where the cockpit floor would be connected.

    After completing the build of hulls, decks and interior floors, all these were moved to Bucharest, to the assembly facility. This was the point where my direct involvement stopped, as my role was to bring the necessary fiberglass building know-how (I am a professional fiberglass and wood boatbuilder).

    My friend continued the assembly of the boat, building molds and final laminates for all the other parts of the boat, like cockpit deck, mast beam, interior furniture etc. The beams connecting the hulls were made from aluminum mast profile, according to the plans. The rig and sails were made professionaly by a foreign partner of my friend.

    In the summer of 2019 the first boat was launched in UK, and this summer (2020), the second one was launched in Romania, with big delays caused by the pandemic crisis. The boat sails very well, and unfortunately last week my friend lost the drone which he used to film the boat from altitude. There are some videos of the new boat on Youtube, one must search for "Elf catamaran".

    I kept in touch with my friend at all stages of build. He is a very determined person, with a huge passion for what he does currently. The Elf 26 is the first production multihull built in Romania, and I think it is a succes, considering the lack of tradition in multihulls in my country.

    I assume this discussion involves passionate boaters all over the internet, so I apologise if some would consider my post to be some kind of advertisement - this is not the case. I only narrated the facts, and there are much more facts to be narrated.

    Thanks again mr. oldmulti for the great amount of knowledge you share with us, the multihull passionates all over the world.
     

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  11. oldmulti
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    oldmulti Senior Member

    fitness4mind. Thank you for your contribution. The sharing of information about multihulls is appreciated especially good designs like the Elf 26. I hope your friend can make commercial success of the ELF as it fills a place in the market for those who cannot afford a bigger boat and associated mooring costs but still want a cat that can seriously sail well in coastal and limited offshore conditions. The ELF 26 fills that gap. A good fun family cat with accommodation.
     
  12. fitness4mind
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    fitness4mind New Member

    I don't know if I violate any rule on this forum, but I put a link of a topic on a romanian boating forum, for those interested in more photos and the complete story of Elf 26: Poveste cu catamaran https://forum.capcompas.ro/index.php/topic,3166.0.html . The text can pe translated by Google Translate if anyone interested.

    I also hope he can make a financial succes, because he worked and still works hard. He has the same problems of the entire industry, concerning employees (very hard to find good ones), legal and environmental constrains etc. Right from the start I was invited to join the business, but I declined and focused on my work, assuming the only role of know-how provider.

    For a longtime I was and still am interested in a small production multihull (trimaran preferably), which I could build myself with some aid. The reasons are the same you pointed above, a small and affordable boat, easy to launch and retrieve and reasonably fast. From what I know, small production trimarans are a rare species, and in present days amateur builders who complete their boats are pretty uncommon.

    There are much more things to be said, but I don't want to interfere more in the most valuable forum topic that I ever read on the web. I will continue to thoroughly follow your knowledge sharing. Right now I work in repairing a Lagoon 40, it is the biggest repairing project I participated in, and I am happy that it is a multi :)
     

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  13. oldmulti
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    oldmulti Senior Member

    The CATNANO 9.9 is a performance cruising catamaran which is 32.5 x 19.35 foot that weighs 6270 lbs and displaces 9000 lbs. The cat carries a 37 foot fixed aluminium Sparcraft mast and anodized aluminium boom with a 390 square foot main, a 187 square foot self-tacking jib and a 560 square foot gennaker. The hull length to beam ratio is 10.6 to 1. The cat has daggerboards and spade rudders. This boat should perform well with the above numbers.

    Now as you can see this is a serious cruiser with full headroom in a 32 foot package. It will do 7-8 knot averages in the right conditions and peak at over 15 knots. Compared to say a Raku 32, which is a sports cat with less displacement and a bigger rig, the Catnano will only be slightly slower but able to handle stronger winds under a full rig. The Catnano will give many French production 40 foot cats a problem around a race course.

    The hull construction is solid glass vacuum infused below the waterline with the remainder of the hulls and deck Duflex sandwich panels glassed together and painted with AWL-Grip paints. The Duflex panels indicate that this cat is partially “assembled” above the waterline more than pulled out of molds. More research is needed on how its built, but there is nothing wrong with the assembly approach as it can allow more build customisation.

    The accommodation is good for a 32 footer which is about the smallest size of performance cat that can have full headroom on the bridgedeck and reasonable underwing clearance (1.7 foot). There is 6 foot headroom in the main cabin and 6.2 foot headroom in the hulls. There are two 5 foot wide forward double berths and a single aft berth. The galley (with a 3 burner stove and 130 litre fridge) and dinette are in the bridge deck main cabin. There are 2 loo’s and a separate shower compartment. The aft cockpit has dual steering and steps to the waterline via the sugar scoop sterns.

    If this layout looks vaguely familiar think about Kohler KD 860 catamaran. As you will see tomorrow this company also produces Catnano 9.15 which is designed by Kohler.

    An interesting design. The jpegs give the idea.
     

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  14. oldmulti
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    oldmulti Senior Member

    The Catnano 915 was designed by Bernd Kohler and was based on the KD 860 catamaran design. The Catnano 915 cruising cat is 30 x 18.35 foot that weighs 4500 lbs and displaces 7600 lbs. The rig is as simple with a Z spars anodized aluminium 36 foot mast single spreader rig and anodized aluminium boom. The mast carries a mainsail of 345 square foot, the self-tacking furling jib is 46 square foot and a 495 square foot gennaker.

    The concept of this 30 foot catamaran is to take a couple or a young family on a coastal cruise or perhaps a more ambitious voyage safely in near the minimum size bridgedeck cat for the task. The accommodation has a pair of double berths accessible from the hulls are set athwartships in the forward part of the bridgedeck, and each cabin has its own head. The saloon is compact, with a small galley in the starboard hull.

    It is constructed of plywood sheathed in epoxy resin and fiberglass. It’s a simple but versatile and strong build method that is almost maintenance-free. The jpeg of the KD 860 structure shows the major components are all plywood and timber and with WEST type epoxy saturation will be as good as foam glass structurally.

    Auxiliary power for this lightweight boat is provided by a pair of 7hp (yes, you read that right) Farymann diesels turning Gori folding propellers. The standard of equipment throughout is high.

    In summary this is a small, seaworthy catamaran with excellent cruising characteristics that can average 7 knots and peak at 15 knots plus. The jpeg drawings are of the KD 860, the jpeg pictures are of the Catnano 915. There are slight difference between the 2 models.
     

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  15. oldmulti
    Joined: May 2019
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    oldmulti Senior Member

    The Fusion 40 kit cat has been in production for 15 years. The Fusion 40 is 40 x 23.33 foot that weighs 11,700 lbs and displaces about 17,000 lbs. The mainsail is 688 square foot and a jib of 264 square foot. The cat can have up to 1900 square foot with main, Code 0 and spinnaker up. The design has low aspect ratio keels.

    So why the interest. This is a kit catamaran that can be shipped to your home in 2 containers. You can with a small team can assemble the shell in 3 weeks and its then up to you to fit it out. Others have gotten the kit and done the complete build themselves. Now I know some don’t like reading PDF’s but the follow 102 page 56 meg PDF gives you a very strong insite as what it takes to build a Fusion 40. The address is http://bossanovafusion.com.au/wp-content/uploads/BossaNovaBuildBook.pdf

    The concept of the Fusion 40 was originally conceived in Airlie Beach, Whitsunday's Australia then manufacturing was transferred to Cobra International and CMI (Composite Marine International) in Bangkok Thailand. This 1.1 million square foot facility manufactures watercraft of all types, automotive composite components, and even motorcycle parts. Their facilities have autoclaves, large scale CNC routers for mold manufacturing, smaller scale systems for component shaping, clean rooms, paint shops, and employs about 3000+ personnel.

    The Fusion Engineering Team uses vacuum infusion to improve the fiber-to-resin ratio with each component have a gelcoated hard wearing surface. The sandwich laminates use Diab 80 kg density PVC Cores with E-glass triaxial stitched fabric with a modified epoxy vinylester resin system used throughout.

    The Fusion 40 performs reasonably well with one owner reporting “With 20-25 knots of SSE winds, heading NW made for some swift and comfortable sailing on this 40 foot cat. 1st reef in the mains and full self-tacking jib gave the boat a good balance at a max speed of 12kts with almost no tide.” Other owners report it can reach above 15 knots and average 8 to 9 knots. Many have crossed oceans globally. There are over 20 have been built and sailing. The power version has more.

    The jpegs give the idea. Please read the above PDF as it is the real gold and the PDF below is a publicity doco but gives some insites.
     

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