Movable Ballast for Small Multihulls / Self-Righting?

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Nov 27, 2010.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    High Performance Self-Righting Multi Design for Disabled Sailors-and others


    Actually I didn't think I could get all the information into the thread title but the title of the very first post of the thread says it all:


    TITLE,POST # 1 of this thread: "High Performance Small Multi Design for Disabled Sailors-and others"

    Thats the subject of the thread-sorry for any confusion.The thread title reflects things I thought at the time would possibly be required to accomplish a high performance small multi design for disabled sailors and others. It specifically does NOT place limits on the design other than that it was "High Performance".
    Note that "self-righting"(automatic righting from a capsize or pitch pole requiring no crew intervention) was not(and is not necessarily) a requirement for the virtually unlimited ideas that were suggested by the first post. Self-righting was a conclusion I came to well into the thread(post 19) but other ideas might be ok IF the result produced a High Performance multihull. My personal opinion, thanks to work I have done on this thread and conversations I've had about it, is that "self-righting"(automatic recovery from a pitchpole or capsize) is essential IF it can be made to work. From the preliminary work I've done, I'd say that for a small High Performance trimaran it is possible in a much, much simpler boat than I thought was possible in the first post.
    Nothing needs to be moved and no electric power is required for the system I envision to work. No intervention by the crew is required for the system to function.
    Much work is required starting with model building and testing and full size prototyping and testing to determine the viability of my design concept.
    Whether or not I'm going to do anything at all more than I have is not determined yet.
    I encourage anyone with a detailed idea regarding the subject matter contained in the first post to let us hear it. The help you give now may wind up helping yourself.......


    ============
    MY IDEA, AGAIN:

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    A potential boat compared with an F18 catamaran:

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  2. cardsinplay
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    cardsinplay da Vinci Group

    Oh Good... another boring list of numbers and meaningless comparisons. How very creative.




    Actually, Doug, when it is the first post in a thread, that line serves as a sub-title descriptor for the entire thread, as weak as this one may be, and not a title of Post #1. That you used it sporadically from then on proves that point.

    So, the major question remains, just what constitutes high performance and what is something of another category? Right now, it looks like you have a very narrow bandwidth when it comes to defining "high performance".


    And, once again, I suggest that you define, high performance, as a function suitable for disabled sailors, given the state of the art in boats used by that segment at present.

    Further, you never mention the name of these mystery persons who simply hammered you to create a boat that filled an unwanted need in the genre. As far as we know, they do not exist and you simply cooked this up on your own in order to put forth a solution for a problem that does not exist.

    I suggested it before and I'll repeat it here: Start simple, produce a system that works without fail while offering a bullet-proof self-righting/rescue method for disabled folks who would use a trimaran for their sailing endeavors. It's absolutely unnecessary to festoon the boat with foils, planing devices, electronic doo-dads and whatever, until that base system is fully developed and totally bullet-proof. Make the task simple, Doug and you just might be able to fabricate a boat rather than burden your psyche with an unbuildable whiz-bang thingamajig.

    PS: Why in the world do you edit your original posts in an after-the-fact effort to make it look like you said those things all along? Do we need to quote your post verbatim in order to keep it all in order? Why not simply make another post, acknowledge your bit in coming around to a more lucid argument, and get on with the business of discussing the topic of this thread?

    How's that for an after-the-fact edit?
     
  3. cardsinplay
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    Doug,

    There are a number of discrepancies in your first post comments compared to those being made in your latest post. Perhaps you could clear them up for us?



    If you look at the next couple of quotes from the first post, it clearly shows that self-righting did not come to you "well into the thread". In fact, it was a principal function you addressed at the start. If you please...

    Thread post #1

    Also from post #1

    Also from post #1

    These comments seem clear enough to me. Do you dispute that you had the process in mind from the very outset?



    Quotes below from yesterday afternoon's heavily revised post.

    Now that it's clear that you were involved with the concept from the beginning, tell us how it is going to work without movable ballast, (which you mentioned at the outset in Post #1 as being necessary) no crew intervention and no electronic systems?



    We all look forward to your first progress report, complete with shop photos, so that all the members can benefit from your discoveries.
     
  4. wheels
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    wheels Junior Member

    To us less abled persons stability and self righting is of paramount importance; because if we EFF up it's a hell of a lot harder to climb out on a fin and tip it back up. :D I know you love small boats and speed.

    I would look for solutions that would allow a seat to pivot around the centerline of the boat. (think teacup ride at the fair) a seat on a beam that pivots just in front of the feet would allow a less abled person to switch their weight from one side to the other and depending on where in the hull you place it the can even do a small amount of trimming fore and aft. If the don't weigh enough to keep things level you could attach some weight under the seat to slide in and out as well. I'll post up a drawing for it later as I'm headed out the door. But I think with some moderate modifications you might be able to get some less abled kiddies out foiling.
     
  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==============
    Again, welcome to the forum Will! I'd like to see more about your idea. One thing that concerns me is that having crew weight in a seat that is pivoting on a fairly long arm may have a problem with the dynamic loading at high speed and with sudden stops like a pitchpole.
    The system I envision-wide tri with foils for early main hull take off and pitch control with planing, foil assist or full flying amas is designed for the crew to be either on the side of the cockpit(not self-righting) or in a seat in the center of the boat(self-righting). I believe the boat can be made automatically self-righting with proper dihedral to the cross arms and ballast on the hydrofoil strut BUT there is a problem which is that the boat would self-right with the crew in their normal position but not if the crew gets thrown out of the seat. So how to keep the crew in their seat safely in a sudden pitchpole?
     
  6. cardsinplay
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    At last... the primary question is put forth by the one guy who needs to understand this function the most.

    Go ahead, Doug, strap that disabled person into their seat with a five point harness. You know the kind of stuff seen in any racing car. It's really simple to unhook the five point harness. You just flick the lever on the central strap receiver and all the belts are released.

    Problem is, that once you have that guy, or gal, in the seat with a proper harness holding them in place, the self-righting function simply must work very quickly and do it without fail, every single time. That kind of system is never going to be 100% fool-proof. So, what you have is a person who is upside down IN THE WATER, they will likely have experienced a degree of impact shock from the capsize, they may, or may not, have had the time, or the awareness, to grab a chest full of air before getting tossed, are very much disoriented in the inverted position and are struggling to hold whatever breath they have for anything more than 30 seconds. This process is very much like the type of experience for which Navy pilots train incessantly, so the issues are as critical as it gets.

    If the system can't get that person out of the water to breathe in 30 seconds, or they wind-up fiddling with the belted-in scenario and can't get loose, panic will quickly replace calm. If it comes to that point you'll get to attend a series of funerals and become great pals with your insurance carrier.

    So, how about you share with us this wildly important self-righting procedure, so that disabled guys like Will can get a sense of what it is you are doing when you suggest that he install himself in the strapped-in cockpit of this "high performance" boat you propose? I'm sure that Will is extremely curious about that and so are a bunch of other readers.

    Please do not go back a edit your previous post to make yourself sound better, or more aware of the issues here. This question isn't going to go away, Doug, just because you want to try to ignore it.
     
  7. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Proas, the safer way to fly...........
     
  8. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Hey cards I'll get back to you, Doug I'm glad someone else mentioned the immersion scenario. are you thinking of a roto cockpit concept ? If they are going to fly like a fighter jet you might as well give them the cockpit, and a emergency air mask-just like the airlines. If they get stuck a proa sailor could help. If they put the lowered ama under they might be able to turn your guy over. Seriously if you are trying to get on the foils in 5 knots of wind the drag from the pod seams shouldn't matter. If a tri-foiler cost 20gs will this thing be 30- 40?
     
  9. wheels
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    wheels Junior Member

    Cards,
    Hello, redirect your attention over here please. I am very aware of the "passionate and excitable" nature surrounding most of dougs threads ;)

    A little background on myself. I'm a T-6 paraplegic from a motorcycle wreck 7 years ago. I've lived my life riding dirt bikes, mountain biking, free climbing, camping, hunting, and playing impact sports. I love boating, from a nice quiet sail to 85mph blasts across lake tahoe on my uncles scarab.

    I've never been on a moth before. But it sounds like a blast. When asked if I had any ideas in regards to how it might be done a swiveling seat is the best solution I can come up with. Of course a locked in place with a 5 point harness would be a bad idea for most that didn't learn to drive in a 56 Volkswagen dune buggy with a 5 point harness like I did. But there is more than one way to skin a rabbit. Between the life jacket that I assure you I would be wearing and the cushioning on the seat would be designed to lift my head out of the water. I would at most have an automotive style lap belt where you push the button in the middle to release if designed for me personally though.

    I would suggest a sealed mast to avoid being upside down. But at 90degrees over and seat in the middle of it's "swivel arc" I imagine being wet but quite comfortable. No worse than when I waterski.

    I'm not suggesting that you could adapt a moth so a c4 quadriplegic could single hand it. But someone with enough upper body strength and balance sure. Pushing limits is why most spinal injuries happen to young men. Just cause we got a owie doesn't mean that we are finished pushing limits. I plan on skydiving this next year.

    Sure there will be some risk involved with developing a system like this but dam it does look fun and I would have a go at it. To quote one of the very influential men in my early life, "who dares wins".... Without risk there can be no reward.

    If you see a better way share it please. If you see a way to modify the existing idea to make it safer or smoother share it please. But to toss it completely aside because you are afraid I might not be able to push a lever or button under water? You do know that makes people like me try that much harder to prove you wrong?
     
  10. wheels
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    wheels Junior Member

    I'll post up the drawings I'm working on later tonight I hope. Then feel free to critique to your hearts content. I know that I'm an amature but hey so were the Wright bros. ;)
     
  11. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    High Performance Self-Righting Multi Design for Disabled Sailors-and others

    ==========
    Appreciate your effort ,Will. I've written to several guys to get their capsize/pitchpole experience in foiler multihulls. Already one response. I'll post
    the gist of the comments when they are all in. Working on something like this is very worthwhile-and may help people sail real fast that currently can't.
    The only way to approach it is that a solution CAN be found.
     

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  12. cardsinplay
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    Interestingly enough, Will, I share many of your athletic interests., such as: Racing Motocross, Enduro and Desert dirt bikes, Observed Trials riding, Road Racing in the 350 production and GP classes, Ski Mountaineering (Haute Route in Sierra) Technical Rock climbing from Yosemite to Devil's Tower to The Leap, Catamaran Racing for years and on and on goes the list. I understand the feeling. I’ve got a 22 year old daughter who is on-sight flashing 5.11 one pitch routes and plowing through horrendous boulder problems. She was raised to have self awareness and safety at the top of her every moment on the cliffs. I don’t tell her no, don’t do it. I tell her sure… have a blast and check all your gear when you dump the approach bag to rope-up.

    This isn't about not doing it and I never said to not do it. It's all about recognizing the inherent issues that relate directly to safety for everyone and not just folks in your condition.

    I consider you an outside the box disabled person, simply because of your prior background in so many difficult and risk oriented sports. Most folks are not like that and you have to know that. If a guy like you gets into one of these poorly conceived contraptions and manages to make it work because you've got deeper skills and a more refined understanding of risk related activities, what happens when the everyday wheelchair guy hops onboard, thinking that he can also do that simply because you demonstrated the potential and you are one of the wheelchair gang?

    The same issues surround the typical tourist camper guy who has watched some hard men put up a route on Glacier Point Apron and now he's gonna take a bender... cause he can and it looks like it’s easy because the angle of the polished stone is relatively low. I've rescued doofus kooks off of Bear's Reach on Lover's Leap in the rain who had no business being out there in their t-shirts and jeans, so I know about the allure for the closet adventurer. One can only guess what shape they'd have been in if they'd put chalk on Traveler Buttress and got a solid dose of hypothermia before anyone could get up to them.

    Point is... Doug has, once again, gone off on one of his Performance Means Everything tangents, while the base concept of the design would indicate that the principal function of primary stability , self-righting and an understanding of the realities of disabled sailing have flown right out the window, only coming on line because he's been forced to deal with it. You may have noticed that he’s been asked several times to spill the details on his self-righting ideas, but there has been not one peep in response. Draw your own conclusions as to the meaning of being so totally vague.

    I say get the safety things dialed at the start, have it all in place and fully functional. Then, and only then, does a designer start to look at something that could make the ride more, shall we say, energetic. This thing has been done completely backwards and because it is on its ear, it is going to have huge teething problems that may never get solved. Meanwhile, back on the dock, other disabled sailors are having the times of their lives going out in safe, well presented and designed boats that did place stability and safety at the very top of the list.

    Hey, Will, it's your choice. Go out on the crags with a five year old rope that has bumped around in the back of some dudes pickup, or shake your head no and thank your buddies for thinking of you until they get their hands on a new, 10.5 mm Bluewater. I know where I'm at on that topic and this boat thing is no different.
     
  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =========================
    That is an ABSOLUTELY FALSE statement!
    As far back as post 19(below) I posted my idea and in the top post of this page(post #46) I posted specific dimensions of a boat that could do the job.


     
  14. cardsinplay
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    Doug...

    You are yelling. Is that really necessary, or can we simply communicate in a civilized fashion?
     

  15. cardsinplay
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    cardsinplay da Vinci Group

    Truth be told, Doug, You've bandied about with three, or four, different takes on how this boat might look. To be honest with you, there doesn't seem to be enough cohesiveness in your concept that would give any of these presentations more value than the rest.

    You jump around saying, in a recent post, that self-righting didn't come to you until later in the game, when it was very clearly suggested at the outset. Now, you are indicating that you have been twiddling with a non-moving (your words) weighted keel strut that you seem to think will magically right a 16' wide trimaran with amas. Somehow, it seems, that a boat that wide with buoyant ama/pods will take some ghastly amount of weight on a very long strut in order to even get it to heel in one direction, much less right itself. Keep in mind that a retractable strut is a moving element, so that part of the design is not available to you (according to your latest declaration on the matter)

    Meanwhile, as we wait for this hugely weighted foiling strut to do its magic, the person, strapped in the cockpit is drowning on the air from one pair of lungs. That doesn't sound so good.

    Now, maybe you are planning on an extraordinarily long strut to do this work. Where does one ramp launch this smallish boat where draft issues won't make it obsolete before being shoved off the trailer? I guess that it could be taken to a sling hoist, but that would seriously imit the numbers of locations where it could be owned and sailed. About that strut... what kind of material and at what monetary expense will it take to make this boat work properly? This is but one avenue of discussion where the overall concept begins to fall apart and it would do so for a disabled, or fully able person, whomever may be driving the boat.

    It's stuff like this, Doug, that sends me a solid signal that you are so taken with the notion of putting a disabled person (or even a fat old grumpy guy, as you describe yourself) into the cockpit of a high performance vessel, that you have not paid attention to the one thing that has to work before all else even gets to the light of day. Perhaps you missed this in the first post made by Will when he said...

    Tell you what... take your latest idea from whatever list of numbers you have conjured and make a working model-sized example. Leave off the foils, the massive rig and all the extraneous stuff that only complicates the process. For instance: You do need to prove this with a rig, so put on a rig with modest area, rather than some outrageous sail plan that only hampers the business of self-righting. Take this model out to the nearest body of water deep enough to allow the boat to float free and show us that it is so unstable inverted, that it will just flop on over all by itself. Now, tell us how much weight it took and how long of a strut was necessary to get it to do that. Oh, yeah... photos or it never happened.

    That, my friend, is the beginning point for a design that self-rights. All this talk and endless lists of posted numbers and comparisons are totally worthless until you can prove that one, primary function. If you get that to work, you can move on to foily bits, or bigger rigs, or whatever makes your buzzer twinkle. Of course, each change to the base form requires another proof of concept test process... again photographed on the water and working.
     
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