Movable Ballast for Small Multihulls / Self-Righting?

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Nov 27, 2010.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    What I'm looking at is to try to develop a concept for a boat regarded by any who evaluated it in comparison to other existing high performance boats as "high performance". There are a number of multihulls that have been adapted to one degree or another for disabled sailing but none under 20' that could be defined as "high performance"-at least that I've found so far. It's tough but that makes it an interesting challenge.
    The system and boat I've proposed should allow performance better than an F18 with more safety than can be found on any multihull I've seen under 20'. It would be self-righting(from a capsize or pitchpole) which is a major breakthru with a small high performance multihull(if it works). Rigging would be designed to take a capsize/pitchpole at speed, the masthead would have flotation and the boat would have the other features described in post 19. It could use all currently available adaptive technology that I'm familiar with, does not require anything powered to self-right, would fold simply for trailering with foils retracted. A system for making it possible to beach sail for a person with limited mobility could probably be devised.
    Problems as I see them:
    1) when things go wrong at high speed they happen quickly-what keeps the crew in their seat? Can it be done safely?
    2) cost-all high performance boats are expensive; adaptive technology is expensive-these are inescapable facts.
    ===============
    Any boat like this would have to go thru exhaustive testing to prove that it really does work and that it is safe. The degree of disability for which this boat is suitable would have to be determined by disabled sailors and disabled sailing organizations.
    As of now I think this proposed boat meets the performance criteria that I was looking for and could potentially provide an exciting way to sail for a wide range of people at a speed unlike any other boat used for disabled sailing(and very close to high performance cats) at a level of safety unparalleled for such a high performance machine.
     
  2. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    I'll stay with my definition of high performance and boat type suggestion because I think it could safely get far more people on the water which is high performance indeed.
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    High Performance Self-Righting Multi Design for Disabled Sailors-and others

    ===================
    Thats cool. It seems to me that if the effort is going to be made to design a high performance multihull for disabled people and others then it should truly be "high performance" by anyone's definition. At least that's the way I am approaching it......


     
  4. cardsinplay
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    cardsinplay da Vinci Group

    I think that Cav has this one right on target in all the ways that truly matter.

    Looking to chase a design for disabled sailing that ups the game in this fashion is very much proposing a solution for a problem that does not seem to exist. One should ask the question, "What's the point of a boat like this and how many sailors does one really think have a burning interest in this kind of sailing?"

    Do I think that disabled sailors have a right to sail as fast as they want?... Sure, they can go out and do whatever it is that they feel capable of doing successfully with no restrictions. But that's not the base question here and to be honest, I'm not aware of some thumping groundswell of dissatisfaction within the disabled sailing community when it comes to being shortchanged while sailing in the boats to which they already have access.

    From my perspective, I'd prefer to see more sailors of all physical levels of capability out on the water participating in our sport and it doesn't take a whiz-bang foiling, sliding, high-tech contraption to get that done. If anything, the type of boat being proposed here would serve to drive away sailors who just might be interested in this activity, rather than entice them.

    Some time back on these pages, Doug suggested that there was a well-known disabled sailor who was working with him on his Trapwing idea and that everyone in the disabled community was all excited that such a boat was soon to be splashed. Unfortunately, the Trapwing idea has gone into hiding, the suggested excited party has not been named and is, as far as I can tell, in seclusion in some undisclosed location and there's nothing to show for all the hoopla. That the Trapwing has fizzled is one of the powerful reasons that this latest discussion will likely fade away, as well. It's just not that compelling.

    It's one thing to design to a niche, but there has to be some sort of interest that drives the discussion forward. I just don't see the interest on these pages, or anywhere in the sailing community.

    I'd much rather see a really well thought-out design that is several notches away from anything like an F18 cat and it is endowed with safety features and solid build techniques that might be doable by the average guy working in his garage... disabled, or not.
     
  5. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    Haven't you been listening?

    Doug broke out the defibrillator paddles, liberated the aeroSKIFF hull remains back from Tinho and is shocking it back to life after a quick rhinoplasty. It is now going to be a showcase for all of Doug's "in-design-discussion" technological innovations. From what he's said, I think he is going to be have a "strap-on" Trapwing as well.

    I'm pretty certain Doug will be taking videos this time, as HD digital video is far cheaper and better than the BETAMax that was in use when the Mark One aeroSKIFF was trialled.

    I'm expecting the sailing world to be stunned when the first video is posted and Doug is proven right. I bet we could get Tom Bergeron to handle the narration duties.

    --
    CutOnce
     
  6. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    I'm taking a gentle step back from the performance race. My next idea was to use a cannon to launch sailors equipped with skis and parasails into the stratosphere. They become the ballast reaching 200+ knot velocities before the chute deploys. Real high performance. The support crew was to be outfitted with mops in case the trajectory was a bit off. Then I realized the next guy would use missiles and we already have a race like that....so I will quote some high performance musicians, "All you need is love".
     
  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =================
    Great input, Cav. Thanks.
     
  8. cardsinplay
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    cardsinplay da Vinci Group

    Something very close to that has been a component of the Navy Seals tactical strategy for many years. Reference C-17 and C130 HALO insertions and you'll discover the whole story. Differences abound, such as the inclusion of full combat equipment (weapons, ammunition, commo, fins, rebreathers, etc.) but it's remarkably similar.
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    High Performance Self-Righting Multi Design for Disabled Sailors-and others

    I think it is amusing when ablebodied sailors/designers/inventors are enthusiastically willing to "settle" for a boat somewhat or a whole lot less than "high performance" on behalf of disabled sailors. I've fairly thoroughly searched for any designer, any boat anywhere that specifically seeks to offer a truly high performance design(one that everyone would agree is high performance) for use by disabled sailors or anyone who is physically not up to sailing a high performance boat that reflects current technology. There is not one designer or one boat available(that I have found) that does this in such a way that the disabled sailor would be 100% self-sufficient-not requiring on board or outside help. Thats why I started this thread-thats why I've proposed a solution-a self-righting trimaran-no not one that you right by yourSELF as some "self-righting" multi's have claimed: one that automatically rights itself from a pitchpole or capsize. This seems to me to be the ultimate in safety whether you are disabled or not and is made possible-relatively simply- by combining the most modern technology with older technology.
    Of course there will be problems to solve-thats why this is hard-not easy-to do. But I've talked to a few disabled guys that are enthusiastic about high performance under sail becoming a practical reality for them- not having to "settle" for limitations conceived of by others.
    By the way, I was asked to look into this by a disabled friend-I thought a good way to begin would be to (try to) harness the brain power of the community at boatdesign...
     
  10. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    I think you're limiting yourself by a definition of high performance that is centered on speed. The proa can be self righting, fast and do a lot of other things for more on the water recreation opportunities. With the ama partially flooded it becomes a swim and dive platform and ramp with the ability to raise and lower people and things into the water. Can't lift that lobsterpot on deck? No problem, tend the traps by lowering the "ramp", lift them by pumping out the ama then zoom home at double digit speeds. Picnic on the platform or fish with friends, beach and explore the tidelands then sail fast. More speed for the money, more boat for the size, more options for people who don't want to limit themselves in how they use a boat. A boat that is good for anyone .
    Proas, the safer way to fly, with room and versatility for when you have more than one thing on your mind ;)
     
  11. cardsinplay
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    Nice self-absorbed speech, Doug, but it is as far off base from the comments on this thread, besides your own, as it can get. Folks here aren't down on performance at all. They're simply being pragmatic and that is a trait that everyone should study in depth.

    Everyone has limits, Doug. Certainly, you are aware of your own when it comes to sailing possibilities, right? Well, in spite of the well-meaning aspects of being able to do whatever you want when disabled, there are limits for those folks, as well.

    If self-righting is your true interest, then why does the boat have to be loaded-up with such stuff as, complex electronically controlled machinery, foils that look to be after-thought additions along the lines of all your other boats and long lists of gizmos that are not focused at the primary target of a self-righting trimaran? None of those cool features are even close to being necessary, especially when the supposed self-righting issue remains unproved in practice.

    It would seem pragmatic (see, there's that word again) that any design for disabled folks that seeks to be self-righting, would first address that singular component. Then, and only then, would one have access to the process in which some sort of performance potential could be addressed. Right now, the boats of this variety that have been bandied-about on these pages, are non-existent. Not even the nifty models you produced have the capability to show this primary function as workable, much less seeing it work on a full-sized craft.

    A pragmatic approach would suggest that you be able to show that the system you propose is functionally workable beyond words on electronic paper. I'd like to see it perform the task of being able to right itself from a full capsize in less time than it would take for a stunned, disabled person to drown, or eject themselves from the craft while inverted. Show us that this benchmark is attainable, or the whole thing is baloney. Lists of numbers on the thread are not a substitute for proof of concept delivery in the real world.

    Posturing on the subject of performance possibilities for disabled sailors is nothing but a smokescreen to deflect the readers away from the real yardstick that will have to be achieved... Self-Righting. Achieve that with repeatability as a function of the obvious operational time restraints and I'll support any weird fiddle-faddle you want to put on the boat... as long as it doesn't interfere with the primary task.
     
  12. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =====================
    The thing is, I was asked to look at the fastest possible high performance multihull that could be suitable for disabled sailors -or others. Most people that I talk with equate high performance with high speed-I'm not talking gunkholing or a picnic boat-necessarily. I'm talking high speed high performance as the overiding #1 priority- which is what my friend is looking for.
    Cav, can you post any numbers for a design like you suggest? You say it would be self-righting-is that with crew interaction or automatically?
    Any suggestion of an existing boat similar to what you have in mind?
     
  13. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    A pump could be set up to work automatically though I think letting the operator start it so he/she can position themselves to be lifted is the way to go. Almost any proa or cat can be set up this way depending on hull materials. A tri is harder because of the lever arm of the other ama. It could fold but then you are back into gizmos. Being free of the boat instead of strapped into it is a plus. If systems go wrong on a strap in somebody could easily be drowned.
     
  14. cardsinplay
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    Who asked you to do this and how far are they willing to go to get a margin of improvement to the boats already being sailed very successfully? Are they willing to go into the territory where untested design proposals could be dangerous for disabled persons?

    High performance is related to all sorts of design issues within a given design. That topic could be applicable to the use of carbon fiber, as opposed to aluminum in the building of spars. It could also be equated with vacuum-bagged, resin infusion techniques as they apply to the construction of the hull forms. Going further, high performance can also be aligned with creating any boat that exceeds the understood parameters of what is the norm within any given boating category.

    So, is the performance gain incremental, or is it of the variety where serious, long term testing is involved in order to prove the validity of the design potential? From my perspective, this is of the latter and yet, not one effort has been put forth to generate any understanding of the process, beyond a collection of scale models, much less the build and sailing styles required for a full-sized boat.

    Unfortunately, you didn't equate any of these performance oriented pre-eminence elements in the topic of the thread. As a result, it looks like you've done a used car salesman, El Switcheroo, on the readers here.

    By posing as a caring designer of pragmatic boats for disabled sailors, you have really bated them (and everyone else who reads this thread) into another of your typical, glue everything techy onto the boat and call it good, designs for disabled folks. It doesn't work that way if you are truly being responsible to the stated mission of working to create a Self-Righting Multihull.

    In short, you've blown your own design brief.

    The question now becomes, "Do you have the integrity to right this seriously listing thread and get it back to the matter of producing a boat design that works for disabled folks without endangering them and their capabilities?" Hint... it takes a serious degree of listening, rather than blind, numerical lecturing to come to this place before a group of your peers.

    We await your thoughtful response.
     

  15. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    I'm with you on this one Cards, when I quoted "All you need is love." I made sure my proposal had room for it ! Now there is higher performance......
     
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