Motoryacht project?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by capt_jack, Jun 14, 2010.

  1. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Do´nt even think about it!
    There is definetivly NO benefit on a boat you are looking for. Just twice the cost, nothing else.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  2. eric le marin
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    eric le marin naval architect

    I don't agree on this point... I did invent a new way to build boats in Aluminium, without any complex machinery, and I am very happy with the result (2 french sailing newspapers did like the boat) My boat, equipped with fully new equipments (engine, sails, electronic, etc...) costed me 25 k€. Thats a tiny 28ft ketch, for 2 persons offshore cruising. The closest boat I found on the market costs 120 k€...

    My way of building suits very well to an amateur builder, but not to industry, since there is no scale savings at all with this methode. (building a second boat would cost exactly the same) I should maybe explain it in the forum, but the translation in english/american could be very bad with the specific vocabulary...:confused:
     
  3. eric le marin
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    eric le marin naval architect

    Captain jack said he wanted to developpe the stirling technology !
    Then his boat would be a floating lab. :cool:
     
  4. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    I would not call a NA amateur Eric! But the thread opener told us that he has no experience in boat design / building, therefore be sure the statement remains valid.

    To your method,
    a second boat of exactly the same design always comes out cheaper in production at least a few percent.
    And you know that.

    120K€ buys a brandnew mass production sailing boat of 38 to 40ft, thats more than twice the 28 footer you mention......

    Regards
    Richard
     
  5. capt_jack
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    capt_jack Junior Member

    Well, on the 80 foot boat it's designed for there's plenty of benefit. Trains are built this way as it's better suited for the work and much more efficient. Large naval craft see comparable benefits but scaling it down brings on a black hole of cost vs. benefits and who has pockets deep enough to go first.

    It's an area I'm interested in from a theoretical standpoint and on shore development only. Combustion engines are inefficient due to thermal energy loss, CHP (combined heat / power) units are where I see the future movement going which brings us back to the stirling and it's ability to convert that thermal loss back into usable power.

    There are fully developed solutions for residential homes in Europe and Japan with at least one company having a portable version meant for yachts. I have no idea what the current size of vessel would be for that particular unit nor if its even still being sold.

    The batteries are where the key lies, IMO and we have the technology in that department just not the acceptable cost for mass market, yet. (I wish I was wildly rich and could afford to be wildly "green"). The only reason I play around with these kind of technologies is a belief that it's much more attainable than some want us to believe and that it may never reach mass market status without pioneers willing to find ways to make it more affordable.

    The "Passagemaker Light" series you linked to looks very, very interesting. I'm in love with the "North Coast" from the other site but my wallet likes the PML more.

    I may very well find a trawler worth converting and be able to stretch my build project over more time though. Never say never....
     
  6. capt_jack
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    capt_jack Junior Member

    I wish you would try. I'd be willing to hep translate as much as possible. Given one of the boats I'm falling for is aluminum I'd be very interested in reading about this method of yours.
     
  7. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Both are nice boats yes.
    Btw. how did you calculate what would fit your wallet better???:D

    Regards
    Richard
     
  8. capt_jack
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    capt_jack Junior Member

    a 48 foot vs. 80 foot leaves me guessing the smaller boat would be a little less expensive. I'm sure there are ways to screw that up if one tries hard enough though.

    I can't argue with the points you've made. They're perfectly logical and valid based on the real world most of us live and breathe in.

    My problem and strange views come from two decades of working in dark corners with no names. I've seen things that shouldn't work and can't be doing what they do. Our concepts of math and science work perfectly well in the reality we choose to exist in. There's a lot more out there and for someone like me with a typical education and background in science it may as well be labeled "magic".

    We have existing technologies that are within reach of the average DIY type. The problem is that everyone is looking at the finish line. We have stirling based solar tech that hits wild efficiency rates - the problem is that everyone thinks they should be paid billions for it. They see the ultimate benefit and want the ultimate payday immediately.

    If you look into the open source hardware movement you'll find people creating things which they shouldn't have according to our traditional market. Meanwhile the traditional manufacturers of those products will tell you it's not possible. Why would they cut their profit margin 50-90 percent?

    Industry never embraces progress if that progress hurts them. That's why progress destroys those who fail to adapt.
     
  9. capt_jack
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    capt_jack Junior Member

    I think it would be wiser in my case to purchase a good, used boat and learn her well, make my first build project a tender for her and take my time before having my ultimate goal boat built. (Doing the parts I can do well and having the experts do the parts they do well - my family will be on this thing after all).

    That should help me make more informed decisions about what changes to make to the interior of the design and hopefully allow me to convert a recession deal into a lump sum payment towards the custom build.

    In the meantime I hope to learn all I can absorb about nautical architecture / design while my used boat and some certification classes teach me the practical skills side of things. (I do have some marine skills and background with time on various ratings / classes).

    I have seen some excellent DIY boats. It makes me think about the small fishing villages in England who would hire a designer and then "chip in" to build a trawler on the beach. There are very good reasons to hire a qualified designer but we do have a long tradition of excellent boats built by "amateurs".

    I was surprised, however to find a few designs for passage rated craft constructed with GRP. Are there any changes to such a boat which make it acceptable vs. aluminum or steel for such use?
     
  10. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    Cap-Jack,re: diesel electric

    The reason locomotives use it is to get 15,000 to 20,000 tons moving using the electric motors massive torque at zero rpm with stepless ratio changes..
    A manual transmission is nfg,as is a fluid drive automatic.
    I wish we could get the efficiencies of a train-one gallon of diesel will move a ton of freight something like 435 miles.

    I spent quite a bit of time investigating diesel electric and it is not worth it.
    I looked into a Siemens AC setup for a 45' cruiser- $100k plus $20k installation plus.
    Then there's the ECUs full of microchips and millions of semiconductors.

    I have yet to see a test done,with normal drive-then converted and showing us mileage gains.

    So even if it did work...let's say hypothetically a 10% gain...at $130,000-that's ~40,000 gallons you'd need to save.
    So you'd have to burn 400,000 gallons of fuel-saving 10% to get 40,000 gals. to pay for it.

    You'd spend the rest of your life continuously circumnavigating just to pay it off.

    Spend $10k-get a CPP and get the same benefits.
     
  11. capt_jack
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    capt_jack Junior Member

    I wonder why so many sailboats are making use of it?

    http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2006/11/hybrid_sailboat.html

    There are quite a few others, including a system built by an owner who now markets the solution via his own business.

    Granted a sailboat can recover energy while sailing to some extent but if the system can be scaled down to be light enough yet still hit hull speeds of 11-14 knots there's not much of an excuse for a motor yacht not to be able to get even better performance.
     
  12. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    From the link you provided: "It works well on open-ocean passages, not so well in light winds."



    I have yet to have anyone show me how:
    -a generator with perhaps 91% efficiency
    -going through a phase inverter/controllers/wires with perhaps 89-94% efficiency
    -then through a motor with maybe 94% efficiency.
    -with an overall efficiency of (.91 x .9 x .94) 77%
    Is better than a marine transmission's efficiency of ~95%.

    All I hear is "you can properly load your gen set for any speed" etc

    A CPP will "properly load" at varying speeds as well.

    It's your money-go ahead.
    And good luck with that.
     
  13. capt_jack
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    capt_jack Junior Member

    I think they were referring to the aspect of the system that generates power while under sail. Maybe that's the key and these systems really do have an optimization curve that leaves out motor yachts of less than 80 foot or so?

    I'm asking the same questions and from what I've read the claims are that it's more efficient than a standard propulsion system (but that may very well be only in specific types of craft).

    It's something I want to learn more about but it certainly won't be on the used boat I plan to buy and I definitely won't be putting it in the future build unless it's proven to offer cost benefits / come in close enough to a standard setup and have no doubts as to its reliability. I'm just not convinced it can't be / won't be done at this point.

    Hopefully the MYT engine will prove itself out in the meantime. A 1500HP engine that weighs 75 pounds and fits in a 6 inch form would be quite a leap forward for marine propulsion. It's yet another technology that NASA is investing in vs. industry waiting to see what happens.
     
  14. eric le marin
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    eric le marin naval architect

    Diesel electric has been invented for manoevrability and redundancy, a long time ago. It is used in almost all the ships doing dynamic positionning, for exemple, but that is a quite special area.
    The new tren is the hybrid propulsion : you have shaftlines and CPP driven by medium speed diesel for cruising speed and usual bollard pull, and an electric motor connected to each gear box.
    Then , at low speeds, you can switch off one of the engines, and send 50% of the load of the remaining engine on the other shaftline, with the electric "link". You can also add high speed gensets (much more compact) giving a "boost" for security, wich allows to downscale the main engines.
     

  15. eric le marin
    Joined: Jun 2010
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    Location: Aalesund

    eric le marin naval architect

    [​IMG]

    Hum...

    I did a "movie trailer" when I was very happy of my construction... It will appear immature to some of you, so, I just say that I am older now...:)

    The main idea of the construction was to developp a developpable shape little more fancy than an OVNI. I wanted aluminium because its easy and fast to build (no paint), reliable (impact at sea with a flooded container, rocs, etc..), possible to repair, and can be recycled.
    But I wanted to go fast, so, to be light (2,5t), and have nice smooth shapes in the front, and planning shapes in the aft.
    But building a hull in shape (i mean here, not made of flat plates) is long and expensive. And as I say, the only cruiser on the market, 28ft, with a hull in aluminium in shape (round), costed 120k€ in 2004. (of course, plastic is way cheaper). A second hand boat in aluminium of this size costed 30 to 45 k€, and where not able to reach a double digit speed...:p

    So I spent a year playing with paper, bending it, and step after step, I designed the shape of the plate before being bent, to achieve the hull shape I was dreaming of. I ended up with an inverted stem, but the wetted surface was exactly what I had in mind at the begining, and very similar to the last Farr designs.
    The "beauty of it is that the hull is made of one plate...
    So, instead of welding all the small plates (50cm x50 cm sometimes...), you just weld the 3 edges of 4m in the aft part and you have a hull ! When you know that corrosion and micro-cracks usually happen on welded conexions, it makes a lot of sense to try to reduce as much as possible the number of plates forming the skin of the boat.

    The problem with this methode is that it is quite hard to predict the final shape of the hull (it was too complex for the softwares I tried). So I did models and used 3d Measure robots to make volumes calculations, but it was just checking. So my boat is "hand designed".
    For example, in freeship, you can design a hull made of developpable plates, and extract the profile of each plate. I did the other way round. I designed the plate, and didn't find a software able to make a hull out of it. But there is only one possible volume with every profile of hull plate and deck.

    Then the construction process is very easy:
    You weld the biggest aluminium plates you can find together to achieve the plate needed ( for my boat : 8,6m x 5m when the hull is "flat" on the floor, I had optimized the design to fit in two plates, just.) You cut it to the correct profile (with a circular saw, it took one hour)
    Then, with webbing and pieces of wood, you use your common sense of mechanics to bend this big plate, adjust the edges in front of each other, and finally close the bow (90 degrees). You weld by points the different edges to keep everything together, and you weld the deck structure (8 transversal stiffners) to fix the shape (the top is completly open at that time.)

    3 days have passed and you can walk in your hull !

    You add the deck, the deckouse, the cockpit (easy shapes), weld everything tight, and after 3 weeks, you can move your "boat" wherever you want : it is closed, it floats, you can work inside, it doesn't make a big difference with an old second hand boat.

    The rest of the construction is to weld additionnal structure inside the hull, reinforcement for the rig, make the accomodation, paint the deck and deckhouse, install the equipment. I finished after 14 months, working on it just during weekends. But as you know, a boat is never finished, so , several years later, I still have plans for different improvements.

    I spent 7 k€ for the aluminium. I don't remember the rest right now, but the total was 25k€ in 2006, with new sails, new engine, AIS, GPS, etc.
    I spent some more in 2008 before sailing away ( solar panels, dinghy, etc..)

    I am happy with the result. It is too different to be easily compared, but I still think that I would make a benefit if I sold it. It has its own spirit, and I always have some "curious" coming onboard when I stop somewhere. But since my girlfriend (I didn't know her when I built the boat) is sea sick, I changed my mind and offshore cruising is not in my plans for the short future. But I sailed alone to marocco, turned around spain, faced 40 knots of wind (maybe more, excuse me, I stayed inside), and I love my boat. Isn't it the most important for a boat builder ?
    This very special feeling, when finally, everything works ok ? That you have the bimini on, the auto pilot, the asy spinaker in the air, and that you look at your boat sliding on the long swell at 10,5knots, on your way to the tropics?
    This single moment would pay for all the hours spent on the construction.



    link to the video :
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_QpsOYUHsM

    [​IMG]
     
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