Motor/Sailing Vessels, (MotorSailer), Catamaran

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by brian eiland, Mar 15, 2007.

  1. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    MotorSailers, MotorSailors.....

    They're just not a popular subject. Traditional motorsailers have always been such a compromise, they have fallen into disfavor in the market, and in the boating literature. The term has even had negative connotations for several decades now. Should not today's boats be faster and better with new materials, light marine diesels, and better shapes? Should not this be the sensible alternative, the common sense move up from the beloved family sailboat? When trawler options are discussed, suggestions of boredom arise. A lifetime of sail would be discarded, and what happens when the motor quits? Well, hopefully it won't quit, but one can always sail home in a boat with sails on it. For truly long-range cruising and/or remote exploration, the motorsailer can outshine both the sailing aux and the trawler types.

    We need to modernize the motorsailer. The multihull plan-form holds great promises to improve this breed. The long slender hulls of the catamaran type vessel have proven themselves to be real efficient to push under both power & sail. And not only are they efficient, but they can be pushed beyond the traditional hull-length/speed limitations. Just what the modern motorsailer needs, a far less compromising increase in both their sail & power performance, that allows for long-range, and remote area capabilities. In light airs, running one engine often is all that is needed to generate an apparent wind that allows the sails work harder, and the combination can provide much better results than either motoring or sailing alone, …….sailing synergy/harmony, the motor taking over in the lulls and the rig taking over in the puffs


    (A few days ago I added a motorsailing discussion to the specific subheaded category "Motorsailers". I was surprised at the lack of participation, and suspect it might be due to two things; 1.Lack of recognition of this vessel bred, 2.Many forum participants never venture pass the huge general "BoatDesign" section)
     
  2. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Just rediscovered this subject thread that I attempted to introduce a number of years ago.

    Wonder if it will get any more traction now?
     
  3. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member


    Just call it "Green", "Hybrid" or "Crossover".

    How about a foiling motorsailor? Either mono, cat or tri.

    Have the motor semi-automatically keep the speed right for foils.

    Have large buoyancy/ballast tanks for safety and leveling on extreme port/starboard on either mono, cat or tri. Could even be RIB type tubes, also able to fill with seawater for ballast leveling, as well as serve as oversized fenders and general playground seating swimsteps.
     
  4. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Most of the advantages of a "motor sailor" have already been incorperated in modern sail boats.

    The hulls are lighter, the engines are far lighter , and even the comfort of a pilot house is fairly common.

    Cost has always been a concern so CPP while efficient do not really pat dividends on a 1 or 2 gph vessel.

    Another really interesting subject would be lowering the cost of all boats by better building methods.

    "Back to Basics' 40 ft cutter for $40K might be an interesting vessel to contemplate.
     
  5. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Cutting Cost

    I don't know that you could get the price down to that level, ...but I was doing some of those exercises while trying to get the cost of this vessel down to a more reasonable figure.
    Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat
    http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/redesigning-pilgrim-40-trawler-canal-boat-11212.html

    I would still enjoy putting such a project together, ...and owning one of these canal trawlers, if I had the money to do so....;)
     
  6. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    It is not a "WE" thing at all. Which is why you're missing the point.

    Every vessel is designed to each clients unique SOR and budget. If the boat ends up made of Switz cheese because that's the SOR of the client, does that mean all boats must be made of Switz cheese?

    Thus by "WE", you mean "YOU" or "I", since it is a singular pursuit, not an industry pursuit as you're attempting to state.
     
  7. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

  8. waikikin
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    waikikin Senior Member

    Great Idea Squidly,

    Just apply the latest Buzz words;) And invent some acronyms!!

    Jeff.
     
  9. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Two more Motorsailer 'Redesigns'

    I spoke above to the idea of a 'redesign' of the Pilgrim 40 trawler/canal vessel utilizing a steel hull with a honeycomb composite deck and topsides.

    In the back of my mind there remained the idea that a similar type of construction might be applied to two monohull favorites of mine;
    a) the Rhodes 44 'Discoverer'
    b) the Alden 57

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. RHP
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    RHP Senior Member

    Brian, the day of the traditional motorsailor has passed. Like you, I greatly admire the Rhodes 44 and 57 however today the same comfort exists within the hull shape, displacement, better accommodation and sailing characteristics of a modern yacht. Materials and engines are lighter and more efficient and roller reefing means a small crew can cope with a bigger expanse of sail than previously. The advent of the raised saloon per Oyster Yachts etc.. has created a protected cockpit and the same all round visibility and comfort of traditional motorsailors.

    Lagoon etc.. have converted the stability and comfort of a traditional MS into a catamaran; see how popular they are.

    In short I'm not sure we'll see the Cheoy Lee or Fisher heavy motorsailors again. Modern mass yacht builders produce cheap to build condo like yachts with hulls like skimmers with smaller engines: this has become the norm.

    So in response Brian, the MS market has been sliced, diced and absorbed into two broad segments, raised pilot house yachts with more efficient hulls and sail systems, and condo catamarans.

    Take your pick.
     
  11. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Catamaran Motor/Sailers

    Here is the quote I started this subject thread with. It appears I excerpted it from an essay I submitted at one time to a magazine design contest (the 2nd quote).


     
  12. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    I can appreciate what you are saying here, but I'm not so convinced that with updated materials (frameless formed steel hull, and sandwich composite topsides), these 2 monohull designs could have significantly greater volume in their interiors compared to the older heavy wooden constructions. And their ballast ratios could be improved to carry larger, low aspect rigs (I have several different rigs in mind for both,...one not so traditional ;) ). They both might carry a reasonable sized engine down below their saloon floor, with nice working room around that engine, as well as a good little 'shop' for that world cruiser.

    I’ve written in the past;
    “One particular design has haunted me for years. It was I think a Phil Rhodes design somewhere around 60'~70', a ketch, with a sizable twin engine room, over which was located a grand main saloon with portlights above deck level. This main saloon had great comfort and expansive vista's, and opened onto a sizable aft deck with a fishing chair at its center. There was even a mini-flybridge helm station and a crow's nest. What a great all-around design to liveaboard and travel the world. She could do anything and everything!! I have in 30 years only seen one or two comparable designs, and sadly I lost those clippings and the pictures of the original design, but the concept has remained with me all these years.”


    The raised pilot house on these 2 designs is just a bit larger than those 'modern yachts' but I find it very appealing as a world cruiser, and as a liveaboard. I think the powerboater of today might even come around to a design such as this, particularly when the fuel prices begin the rise in the future.

    I also like the flying bridge, and I believe the powerboater will as well. I had some very nice times on an old friend's father's 'Yachtfisherman' as it was termed. It was a cross between strictly a power yacht and a fishing yacht.

    BTW I like this profile view of the Alden 57 much better. (look at that beautiful sheer line, and that clipper bow,...so much more beautiful that MANY of today's boats)
    [​IMG]

    Hawksbill, an Alden 57
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
  13. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member


    The old days of a 60 40 motorsailor has trended toward a 50 50 where you get equal and satisfactory cruising performance as a sailboat or a motorboat.

    I'd define a motorsailor critically as a sailboat that has a robust reliable mechanical propulsion setup. That mechanical propulsion should drive the boat in any weather on any heading at a reasonable cruising speed and with sufficient fuel for an offshore passage. That means a larger slower more efficient prop and a continuous output rated transmission and engine.

    When you mention comfort; I think habitability in a seaway is the most important measure of "comfort" that's where the motorsailor with it's higher DL ratios can be nicer boats on passages than the production boats that are more performance cruiser types.
     
  14. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Sheer Line Beauty

    There was a quote I read a long time ago that was linked to designer Ray Hunt,...ah, I found it

    And most importantly, you included the oft forgotten element, the sheer line. What a terribly important factor!! Romantically stated, but oh so true, “it is simply her sheer … sheer beauty that is. She enters the harbor like a beautiful woman entering a room. Her sheer is the line we try to get right when we doodle boats.” So many of today’s boats lack this beauty, and correspondingly, some of the essence of yesteryear’s yachting.
     

  15. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    The easiest way to lower coat of most vessels is to remove touch labor.

    Steel may be cheap but it still requires skilled folk to put it together and paint it.

    LLOYDS has specs for a GRP hull in 100% CSM. Chopped Strand Mat.

    With the huge advances in robotics a chop hull could be almost as thin and as light as a mat and roving hand layup in a mold.

    Even gel coat can be robot sprayed , so very little skilled labor would be required.

    With hulls now being produced by "hull companies" , the cost of a robot for hull construction would be spread over many products.

    " Twin 100hp diesels will cruise her at 12/14knts" If very light , which few MS end up.

    Twin 100 HP diesels will burn 10 - 15 GPH so the old 1nm per Gal of fuel burn at speed would preclude distance cruising , unless done mostly under sail.

    A wide Cat can still capsize if driven hard under sail, and might require 2 slips to berth.

    In CT that would be $10,000 $14,000 a summer.

    Hard for the Roomaran set , but fuel costs are only a small part of total costs.
     
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