Motor Sailers?

Discussion in 'Motorsailers' started by Viceroy, Apr 2, 2002.

  1. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

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    motor sailors

    This months Good Old Boat magazine has an article on motor sailors by Ted Brewer which I commend as a great starting point. In point of fact, Ted is something of a master of designing vessels such as you describe and I am sure that he would have some stock designs that would suit your purposes, or he obviously could be commissioned to do a custom design. In addition, he designed some great production pilot house sailboats such as the Oceanic 38 and 44 and some small trailerable motorsailors such as those built by Nimble boatworks that may be worth considering. Good luck. Brad
     
  3. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Motor/Sailer discussion

    Hi Richard,
    You might find discussion of the subject interesting even though you don't have a great interest in multihulls.

    http://www.runningtideyachts.com/motorsailing/

    ....partial excerpt...
    One particular design has haunted me for years. It was I think a Phil Rhodes design somewhere around 60'~70', a ketch, with a sizable twin engine room, over which was located a grand main saloon with portlights above deck level. This main saloon had great comfort and expansive vista's, and opened onto a sizable aft deck with a fishing chair at its center. There was even a mini-flybridge helm station and a crow's nest. What a great all-around design to liveaboard and travel the world. She could do anything and everything!! I have in 30 years only seen one or two comparable designs, and sadly I lost those clippings and the pictures of the original design, but the concept has remained with me all these years.

    We don't hear much of motorsailers these days. They're not a popular subject. Traditional motorsailers have always been such a compromise, they have fallen into disfavor in the market, and in the boating literature. The term has even had negative connotations for several decades now. Should not today's boats be faster and better with new materials, light marine diesels, and better shapes? Should not this be the sensible alternative, the common sense move up from the beloved family sailboat? When trawler options are discussed, suggestions of boredom arise. A lifetime of sail would be discarded, and what happens when the motor quits? Well, hopefully it won't quit, but one can always sail home in a boat with sails on it. For truly long-range cruising and/or remote exploration, the motorsailer can outshine both the sailing aux and the trawler types.

    We need to modernize the motorsailer. The multihull plan-form holds great promises to improve this breed. The long slender hulls of the catamaran type vessel have proven themselves to be real efficient to push under both power & sail. And not only are they efficient, but they can be pushed beyond the traditional hull-length/speed limitations. Just what the modern motorsailer needs, a far less compromising increase in both their sail & power performance, while maintaining an economy of operation that allows truly long range capability.
     
  4. keithw
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    keithw Junior Member

    multihull motorsailers

    Running Tide has a nice discussion and some nice looking cats - but I didn't find in my visit to the Motor/sailing page any reference to range (sorry if i missed it...!) For oceanic sailing we might need 2500 nm plus 10% - with two 60 hp engines thats what - at an AVERAGE of 10 knots ( pretty damn quick average to me, but I am slooow) 250 hrs @ 5-8 litres an hour? two tonnes of fuel / 3 or 4 cubic metres in size...
    Can any cat of manageable size (35-50 feet) carry this kind of load and still acheive the speeds we hear about?
    be nice to hear from someone who has built and motor-cruised such a motorsailer over such distances.
     
  5. asathor
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    asathor Senior Member

    Retirement...........

    The primary advantages of sailing should be clarified:

    1. Noise - sailboats a quieter
    2. You can't go where you want to "just like that"

    The first helps you keep you sanity and enjoy the environment and unless you go bonkers on performance sailing so does the second. Sailing is a process not an end product (destination) like driving and power boating and therefor well suited for retirement when you need to burry your type A ax and get the blodpressure under control.

    My spouse also hates "Basements" : As in who would pay $xxx,xxx.00 for a Basement!!

    Actually I agree with her, I want to visit foreign harbors and be able to sit at my dinner table and toast the gawkers or read a good book in daylight while underway.

    This is sometimes called Raised Saloon as well as Pilot House - You can always add inside stearing if the layout otherwise suits you.

    I really like this Brewer design and hope to get my wife on board one in time for retirement (see samples here): http://www.yachtworld.com/core/uk/listing/cache/pl_search_results.jsp?cit=true&ybw=&slim=quick&sm=3&is=&type=&man=brewer&luom=126&fromLength=40&toLength=40&fromYear=&toYear=&currencyid=1004&fromPrice=&toPrice=&cint=

    Asathor
     
  6. asathor
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    asathor Senior Member

    PS.

    Speed is a function of time and distance. In retirement you will have all the time you need and consequently all the distance you need.

    Comfort is much more important and a moderate to heavy boat will be much more comfortable.
     
  7. jdhowland
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    jdhowland Junior Member

    Keith, thanks for bringing this thread back up!

    This is especially timely for me, as my wife and I are getting close to deciding on our design. Although we have planned and looked and thought and figured, it is difficult when it comes down to it. I thought that motorsailor was a dirty word, untill I began to read about "sail-assisted" trawler (or troller) type boats. I have enjoyed reading everyone's input and ideas on this thread, and on this board in general. Please keep up the good work, nothing ever evolves in a vacuum!
    The free and civil exchange of ideas and opinions will perhaps prove to be the greatset contribution of the internet and the personal computer. How else could a novice such as myself have access to so many designers and N.A.'s?
    John
     
  8. mattotoole
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    mattotoole Senior Member

    Center cockpit cruising sailboats with full cockpit covers make great motorsailors. The cover can be soft, hard, or half and half. Once you've been aboard a good design like this, "pilothouse" sailboats with inside steering stations seem silly, and the extra steering station a waste of space. A good cockpit cover is as good a pilothouse as any.

    A cruising sailboat with moderately light displacement and clean lines can cruise comfortably at hull speed plus with enough power. I've seen a Maple Leaf 42 chugging along gracefully at over 10kt. Since I've seen these advertised with 135HP Lehmans, that's probably what this one had. These boats exceed hull speed readily under sail, so why not under power? I've seen some Beneteaus really ripping along too, though they were aft cockpit boats not passing the pilothouse test.

    In light of all this, I don't see much need for a "motorsailor" -- unless you want to go *much* faster under power. In that case I think Mr. Eiland's cat beats a monohull like the Brewer design mentioned. The Brewer would be easier to park though, so it's more suitable for marina hoppers.

    Anyone interested in motorsailors should check out Stan Huntingford's designs -- particularly the Maple Leafs, but the others as well. They perform extremely well under both power and sail.
     
  9. Skippy
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    Skippy Senior Member

    If you have a fast sturdy (sail) cruiser with a good solid inboard deisel, what's to keep you from installing bigger fuel tanks and calling it a passagemaker?
     
  10. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    I did not make any exact figures as each vessel will have its own distinct "mileage capabilities". It would be easier to figure these range & fuel usage capabilities in the strickly power mode, but even that varies significantly with the slenderness ratios of the hulls and the prop-size/engine RPMs utilized.

    Here's an interesting report from Tara Vana, while delivering his newest 50-foot sportfishing sailing catamaran Tara Vana from her builder in Chile to her home in Bora Bora, Postma not only proved her fishing (and sailing) prowess, but also her ability to outperform a conventional sportfishing machine in one increasingly important aspect: effective range.

    On one 900-mile leg of her 11,000-mile delivery voyage, Tara Vana covered the distance from Costa Rica to Acapulco, Mexico, in the same time frame as the 50-foot sportfisher Kelsey Lee. The sportfisher consumed 1800 gallons of fuel, averaged 8.5 knots and was unable to fish for much or the passage due to fuel bladders lining the cockpit, the weight of which contributed to the low average speed.

    The 50-foot catamaran, traveling under diesel power alone thanks to a lack wind, covered the same distance on only 320 gallons of fuel at an average speed just under the Kelsey Lee’s — roughly 8 knots. Throughout the crossing Tara Vana was fished successfully, her decks unimpeded by extra fuel containers. With a little cooperating wind she could have covered the same distance even faster, using far less fuel.

    Further comparison between the two boats is telling. They are virtually the same length, but with 27 feet of beam, Tara Vana features four staterooms, each with a queen-sized berth, and the catamaran’ s saloon alone encompasses more space than virtually the entire interior of the Kelsey Lee. The gear and tackle storage space on the cat is truly voluminous.

    The initial voyage from Chile of roughly 3,700 miles was accomplished with the consumption of only 195 gallons of diesel fuel at an average speed of 6 knots, proving the vessel is very fuel efficient and promises great range. Tara Vana is equipped with twin 100hp diesels allowing for a power only speed of 15 knots

    Now add in the sailing capability and the figures become very ellusive, "in light airs, running one engine often is all that is needed to bring the apparent wind forward to make the sails work harder, and the combination provides much better results than either motoring or sailing alone…… sailing synergy/harmony, the motor taking over in the lulls and the rig taking over in the puffs.

    Maybe somewhat repetitious, but here is my latest rewrite of the catamaran motorsailer concept as prepared for this years Miami show:


    Motor/Sailing Catamaran Concept

    (defining ‘the best boat to undertake a world cruise’)​

    I sincerely believe that a well conceived Motor/Sailer is the most practical, capable, comfortable, safe, economical vessel for serious ocean passagemaking......while retaining the ability to fully explore the most remote, and often shallow coastal regions of the water world.

    Even in Beebe’s book,”Voyaging Under Power”, the bible of the power-only crowd, his vessel, “Passagemaker”, was a motorsailer, albeit smaller rigged than he really wanted. Many of the examples he offers as prime passagemakers are instead prime coastal cruisers, ‘semi-displacement’ hulls not optimized for long passages, but rather coastal cruising, where rapid transit is a primary requirement, while fuel use and surviving ultimate conditions are secondary considerations. ‘Trawlers’ today are gravitating toward these semi-planning hull configurations, and twin engines, as buyers become reluctant to accept slow 7-9 knot vessels. And forget wide appeal of primarily sail-powered vessels, particularly with our aging population, so how about those old versatile motorsailers.

    We don’t hear much of motorsailers these days....not a popular subject. The old traditional, stoutly-built vessels, with a hefty engine(s), were necessarily compromised in both their sailing and powering statistics. Let’s modernize the motorsailer. The multihull planform holds great promise to improve this breed. The long slender hulls of the catamaran vessel have proven real efficient to push under both power & sail.....not only efficient, but not limited to the traditional slow displacement/length hull-speeds. Just what the motorsailer needs....far less compromising increases in both sail and power performance, while maintaining an economy of operation that truly allows a sea-kindly, long-range capability.

    Let’s explore a 40' example. Take the single 120-140 hp diesel used to push the conventional 40' single-hulled trawler or motorsailer to a maximum 8.3 knots hull speed and divide it into two smaller 60 hp diesels driving two long slender catamaran hulls. Voila!, maximum to 15 knots under power with the reliability of twin engines and the stability of a twin-hulled vessel. Add a modest sailing rig to these easily driven hulls, and you now have a passagemaker capable of cruising 12 knots under sail/ power compared with those older 7-knot boats. With 12 knots of speed at your command, you can really take advantage of 'weather windows' to: 1) make your passage as smooth as possible, 2) make some lengthy passages you might never have considered in a slower boat. This multihulled vessel will likely be slowed less by an obstructive seaway, and will accordingly make a passage at almost twice the average speed of the single-hulled vessel...twice the speed for the same total HP. There is an economy of operation here that cuts fuel requirements and bills, and greatly extends their range. In light airs, running one engine often is all that is needed to bring the apparent wind forward to make the sails work harder, and the combination provides much better results than either motoring or sailing alone……
    .sailing synergy/harmony, the motor taking over in the lulls and the rig taking over in the puffs.

    The sea-kindliness of multihull craft is being rediscovered every day. Continual experiences with whale watching boats, fast ferries, pleasure, commercial, and military applications are all proving the validity of the multihull form. What many people forget about a good ride in a heavy sea is that it is very much a function of weight in addition to hull shape. More weight, more robust, more form resistance it offers to moving thru the ocean, the more the sea acts to resist the vessel's progress, and thus the more uncomfortable ride, and we must slow down. A big headsea is a particular challenge. Heavy boats carry their momentum into each trough and crest in a battle with the sea, while lighter weight vessels with slender hulls slice through with less battering. Per a sign at the Naval academy, “you can out-think the ocean, but you can’t out-slug the ocean.” Modern materials allow for lighter boats, and we must properly distribute the vessel's weight throughout long slender hulls. Following seas tend to pick up broad sterns and slew a vessel off to either side....broach. The catamaran hull does not require these broad sterns.

    Storm survivability should be considered at the design stage for any vessel making offshore passages. Loss of power (clogged cooling or fuel filters, restricted air supply, water ingress, etc) often occurs at the most inopportune time (during a storm), and this can put the solely powered vessel at peril in short order. A vessel with a modest sailing rig could save your life, and that of vessel itself. Add a proper sea anchor installation, and I would challenge a hurricane. The catamaran planform was rated 'best in survivability' in huge breaking wave tests* carried out by Lock Crowther at the prestigious Univ of Southampton.

    Most innovative item on my vessel, the mast-aft sailing rig, also referred to as a 'single-masted ketch'......a marriage between a cutter and a ketch without the mainsail. I have LOTS of data to support my contentions as to the aerodynamic superiority of this configuration.... But lets leave that theory out of the equation for our motorsailing application. The ketch rig is a good small-crew size rig, particularly where all three sails are roller furling!....even a novice could learn to operate this rig.....and she balances under a variety of sail deployments. Lower force centers add safety. Boats with moderate rig proportions tend to make faster overall passages because they are sailed at a higher level of capability than if they carry a lofty hi-performance rig. No big head-bashing booms, and simply wing/wing the headsails downwind. The sail rig contributes damping action to the rolling in a beam/quarter sea (no servo-fins needed), contributes to an unlimited range, and ultimately it will get you home if the engines fail. Ahhhh motorsailing!

    Optional nacelle-mounted centerboard precludes any extra hull penetrations, and permits maintenance without hauling-out. 'Pointed' deckhouse shape conforms to apparent winds, significantly reducing drag. Flying control bridge & a crows-nest…what a hoot! Dedicated engine rooms, isolated from living spaces. Optional copper-nickel hull material below waterline is impact resistant and naturally antifouling for years.

    Accomodations!! How might it appear as a real estate ad?, "Waterfront cottage, 4/5 bedrooms, three baths, large kitchen & dining area, big deck, wonderful views." Hard to beat a catamaran’s spaciousness and privacy....witness their current popularity in the market. Seamanlike layout... no vast open spaces.

    My 65' Motor/Sailing catamaran is the embodiment of a Phil Rhodes' motorsailer design that has haunted me all these years. Only, this vessel is so much superior. Twin 100hp diesels will cruise her at 12/14knts. Under sail she could make 18/20kts. Range, unlimited. Fuel consumption, extremely low. She could skim over depths as little as 3.5'. Explore those rivers, mangroves, coves, lagoons. Beach the bows. Dive or fish the flats and the reefs from the Bahamas to the Pacific atolls.
    THIS IS AN EXPEDITION PASSAGEMAKER!! , 20-25meters, no crew required
     
  11. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Motorsailers and Motorsailing page

    Please have a loook at http://banjer37msclub.tripod.com/motorsailing.htm
    I would like very much to receive comments, criticisms and collaborations.
    Thanks in advance.
    Guillermo Gefaell
    Banjer 37 Motorsailer Club
     
  12. Skippy
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    Skippy Senior Member

    I still don't see why a motorsailer has to be different from a well-constructed sail-only cruiser with bigger fuel tanks. There's no law that says you have to go faster under power than under sail, and anyway, you get better mileage if you stay well below hull speed. Just start the engine on calm days, and sail the rest of the time.
     
  13. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

  14. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Motorsailers and Motorsailing

    "I still don't see why a motorsailer has to be different from a well-constructed sail-only cruiser with bigger fuel tanks. There's no law that says you have to go faster under power than under sail, and anyway, you get better mileage if you stay well below hull speed. Just start the engine on calm days, and sail the rest of the time".

    I think we should discrimine between "Motorsailing" and "Motorsailers". Every sailing boat with an engine can motorsail, for sure, but not all of them can qualify as motorsailers, in my opinion. Not even boats designed to be efficient under sail, but having powerful engines can be described as motorsailers. See what Bob Leaks says at "A LIVEABOARD CRUISER FOR THE REAL WORLD"


    "The reason for that is that the average sailing auxiliary yacht built these days is abysmally inefficient for motoring. Too small propellers, badly designed propeller apertures, high rpm engines that are inefficient at low speeds, and wasteful heat exchanger/wet exhaust systems are to blame. All of those things are done for the sake of incremental improvements in sailing performance. Fuel efficiency is simply not part of the equation in the design of modern crusing boats."


    My main interest is to discuss about what should be defined as a proper motorsailer. My personal feeling is drifting on the side of "classic" motorsailers, particularly pilothouse motorsailers, with no disrecpect for other conceptions, absolutely. It's only that I feel more comfortable with monohulls than with multihulls, as well as I don't like very much speeds in excess of hull's at sea, as I find we have a bit enough of an speedy way of life on land.

    So, my idea of a proper motorsailer is a motoring-bred sailing boat conceived to have a hull-lines/engine/gear/propeller combination as to efficiently attain hull speed when motoring (with a + for headwind beating), and the addition of enough sail area as to to easily clawing off a lee shore and going up to nearly hull speed in a Force 4 breeze. As I see things, no more than an SA/D ratio of 14.

    .....I had no notice about these threads about motorsailers at boatdesign.net forums. I'm delighted. Lot's of things to read and learn next weeks.
    I agree with Brian that maybe I should have post all this this at the "Munohulls versus Multihulls" thread. Mañana!
    Guillermo.
     

  15. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    In the "old days" the Motor Sailor compromise was a 50/50 , where the cruiser would have a large slow turning engine and large efficent prop, and tiny rig.

    As ghosting was never contemplated the rig was small and could only drive the boat near hull speed in a 20K breeze.

    Today the 90/90 can be done. The huge heavy engine is no longer needed as lightweights run many thousands of hours , with low fuel consumption & low noise levels.
    The controllable variable pitch prop can be feathered so there is no huge speed brake holding the boat back under sail 24/7.

    The use of fully battened main and roller furled headsails allow full canvas , and only windward performance suffers from the roller sail.

    The latest roller sails turn on a fancy ROPE in the luff , so the sail can be lowered and easily stowed when a different shape (storm? Ghoster?) sail is needed.

    "Roller reefing" and "Military Intelligence" are oxymorons.

    A 90/90 is only burdened by the weight of the engine & shaft , batts ect while under sail.
    And only burdened by the windage of the rig , weight of the mast and ballast (if leadslead) while underway.

    Herrishoff Marco Polo is a great example of an early boat that could cruise effortlessly at 10K. If done today with modern materials (and interior & hull design) would be a very efficent boat.

    Internal passave anti roll tank could stop much of the roll underway , and be totally fillable for more FW in coastal work.With bilge keels she would be easy to ground , and should stand upright on the hard, and should get rid of more of the roll underway.

    Unfortunatly in most of the world folks pay for slips by the foot of LOA , so savings on fuel while passagemaking would be eaten by the dock fees.

    Big advantage to the lead slead over the multihull (besides capsizing problems) is the monohulls ability to accept overloading with grace.

    An extra 2 tons of food and cruising stuff (dink outboard Scuba booze the list is endless) would not be unsafe (just a bit slower)in the monohull , but could be a DISASTER for a multihull.

    FAST FRED
     
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