Motor Sailers?

Discussion in 'Motorsailers' started by Viceroy, Apr 2, 2002.

  1. raw
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    raw Senior Member

    I guess that you could call this a motor sailer. Carried far too much fuel to be a yacht.......9000 Litres in fact for extended cruising. Schooner Rig.

    It came off my drawing board a couple of years back and has since made a few trips up and down the east Australain Coast. Finish was some of the best I've seen, with everything that opens and shuts on board.

    Length (hull) 25.6m (~84 ft)
    Length OA ~ 92 ft with bowsprit
    Beam 6.6m
     

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  2. lazeyjack

    lazeyjack Guest

    raw

    looks like Coomera?
     
  3. raw
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    raw Senior Member

    Thats cause it is Coomera. Final fitout was done there.
     
  4. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    RAW


    Interesting project but please tell us more. What is the hull layup?
    Displacement lightship WSA and SA would be good to know .

    What sort of shooner rig and how did you get on with the estimated and practical sail balance. ?

    cheers
     
  5. raw
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    raw Senior Member

    Mike,

    I'm not going to give a detailed answer for you here, but can tell you that the hull is timber planked with epoxy skins. Deck and superstructure is balsa sandwich. Again epoxy.

    Displacements etc I'll keep to myself, but can tell you she isn't a lightweight, due to the amount of luxury fitted. You can't have aircon/tv/quality furniture/refrigeration/etc etc etc without adding weight. Luxury is carried right throughout the boat. She carries an absolute truckload of fuel for long trips away. The engine space has full standing headroom believe it or not.

    Rig has two furling headsails on the main mast, on the mizzen we have the standard boom, with a genoa between. A topsail is flown above this on occaision.

    As far a balance, that was a tricky one, as it doesn't fit neatly into any established criteria that I know of, since the rig is uncommon. That said, having a shoal draft keel gives a good window to get it right as does the sailplan for different conditions. I also had the balance checked by another very experienced designer to back me up on it. Seems to work now anyway.

    raw
     
  6. Guillermo
    Joined: Mar 2005
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Interesting boat, Raw.
    Some more pictures or drawings?
    Cheers.
     
  7. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Mainsail-less, no main

    Reminds me of a conversion of a ketch rig I posted on my website discussion of a mast aft rig;
    "d) Conventional booms excessively flatten the foot of the mainsail, and are often oversheeted, contributing significantly to the leeway forces. I once had a copy of a test on a Morgan 41' Out Island ketch , where upon removing the mainsail, the boat lost only 1/2 knot of speed, but cut its leeway in half (from 11 to 6 degrees). A staysail was then rigged between the masts in place of the mainsail, and the boat regained 1 knot of speed while retaining its decreased leeway"

    The middle sail in my Morgan discussion is called a staysail, while you refer to it as a 'genoa'. I refer to my middle sail of the mast-aft configuration as a "mainstaysail".
     
  8. raw
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    raw Senior Member

    Brian, you are right, I normally call that a stay sail, must've been a little tired when I wrote that.

    Guillermo, of course I've got plenty of drawings and pictures. The drawing package for that boat consisted of around 70 drawings, so you get an idea of how complicated it is. I've just got to be carefull i don't give too much away. but ask away anyways, I'll do my best.

    here's a profile rendering....
     

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  9. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Brian
    I think the mizzen staysail is the best argument for a ketch and is a good reason to make the mizzen mast taller until eventually you have an equal masted ketch then if you shift to a staysail and topsail/fisherman you get to fill all the areas. A friend flies a Mule on a big heavy ketch and swears by it but it is an unkown sail to most sailmakers.

    Another interesting format is that of the wishbone ketch as Robinson used in Svaap but I have not sailed one nor can I find much info on them. On really large boats the equal masted ketch/schooner is a good rig similar to Raws profile above, It is a good practical rig.


    RAW I'd guess around 3000 Sq ft of sail area and 45 tons. Nice project, definately a small ship. Pity you cant talk details.
     
  10. Guillermo
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    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    Thanks, raw. Nice looking boat.
    I do not pretend you to reveal your design's secrecies, just whatever you feeel you can post to show us the general idea of the boat.
    Cheers.
     
  11. raw
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    raw Senior Member

    Mike, You are light on both accounts though the sail area is a pretty good guess, the displacement is a little off.
     
  12. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    Marigraph posted details of a 300' schooner design called Glamare 300 on his site in 2003 with a wonderful rig. http://www.marigraph.com/projects.php?lng=en

    Brian's staysail between mizzen and mainmast is an arrangement that I have suggested for a friend's Nauticat 33. With an equally tall mizzen and main mast, wouldn't a ketch become a schooner? No matter, there would be a wonderful opportunity for flying a mizzen topgallant staysail as well. :D :D
    http://www.jst.org.uk/pdf/categories/tenacious/pdf/TNS Sail & Deck Plan.pdf

    Elsewhere, a Topgallant is the third sail above the deck, but not on "Tenacious", it would appear.

    MikeJohns, you mentioned a topsail/fisherman sail to fill the area above the mizzen staysail. Is that the 4 sided red sail shown on Spike Africa? http://www.lanceandlyndia.com/Boats_for_sale/Spike_africa/spike_africa.htm

    The mule you also mentioned, I tracked down to here. http://www.webmoxie.com/seawind/mule/mule.htm

    I am still not sure what to call the very large triangular sails set above the staysails on Glamare 300, nor can I discover how they are sheeted. I would be grateful for advice.

    Thanks,

    Pericles
     
  13. brian eiland
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Mainsail-less Ketch

    I never was convinced that adding the 'mule' sail to this mainsail-less arrangement was that effective.

    Have a look at the 'sailing' photo of this mainsail-less Tayana 55 I just posted here, and tell me another sail in this slot is going to be that productive for all of the headache and associated rigging, particularly if the mizzen were hoisted ??:
    http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=151969&postcount=45
     
  14. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Pericles
    Yes that's a fisherman. Rigged as follows; the mainmast carries the peak halyard, the throat halyard goes to the foremast, a down-haul is required on the tack, the sheet goes to the end of the boom. They can vary in length and you will often see them 3/4 of the way to deck level as a very effective light air sail.

    The other sail is usually configured as a Wishbone main, in this case if you called it a wishbone main without the wishbone a sail-maker would know what you were on about. Sheeting is simply halyard tack and a sheet to the aft-mast level with the clew and the luff is attached as any mainsail, furler or luff wire or slide or parrels or whatever.

    Brian
    On an under rigged ketch the mule is a very easy sail to add, sheeted in hard it reduces roll significantly. I have a German friend who sails a heavy Dutch ketch here who swears by the Mule and flew it for much of his trip from SanFran to Hobart recently, he says on most points of sail it added a whole knot. It was this information that has made me re-consider this sail. (This is on a heavy displacement full keel vessel).

    cheers
     

  15. Guillermo
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    Location: Pontevedra, Spain

    Guillermo Ingeniero Naval

    I agree. I use an inverted Yankee as a mule on my good old, heavy and undercanvased Marie, with nice results, both in rock dampening and pushing in light winds.
    Cheers.
     

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