Motor Sailers by Philip Rhodes & John Alden

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by brian eiland, Apr 3, 2007.

  1. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

  2. Kirok
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    Kirok New Member

    Thanks for the additional pix on the other forum.

    I think that must be my boat's sister ship-- the picture shows some sort of decoration on the port side above the rub-rail at the house, and at the bow. I can't find anything like that on my boat. Granted, it could've been sanded away and painted over, but there's not a trace left.

    I'm planning on attending the annual Sea Music Festival at the Mystic Seaport Museum in June, and checking out their archives. Anybody need anything while I'm there?

    Kirk
     
  3. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "I'm planning on attending the annual Sea Music Festival at the Mystic Seaport Museum in June, and checking out their archives."


    You might also contemplate writing to MIT.

    MIT has a huge nautical library of plans ,open to the public.

    FF
     
  4. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    I'd like to have a copy of the plans in a larger size than those few dwgs on the Discoverer brochure...and including the sailing rig that was originally installed. I'm sure you might be interested in the same.
    Brian

    I'll get down your way sometime this spring or summer
     
  5. Kirok
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    Kirok New Member

    Alas, my plans for Mystic have been foiled-- a family friend is getting married that weekend. My sea-chantey-soiree will have to go on without me.

    I'd still like to get up there later this summer.

    "No plan survives contact with the enemy."
     
  6. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    LAYLA ,a Take On John Alden's "Miniature Ocean-Going Tug"

    I know, it's not a motorsailer, but it is another inspired design suggested by John Alden.

    It's just been posted on these forums over HERE:
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/layla-john-alden-inspired-design-rockport-marine-42575.html#post544519

    And there is a great link to a blog on the subject vessel, and some renderings

    An excerpt from a portion of that blog that caught my attention:

    A well known yacht designer once told me that from the time he had opened his office he had never prepared a single drawing that wasn’t paid for by a client. He was boasting, or so it seemed to me as I listened to him. His rationale seemed to be that the work was good because it was paid for. Now I have a stack of magazines here in the office filled with images of plastic fantastic designs utterly devoid of character. I have no doubt the designers were all paid in full for their efforts. Don’t get me wrong, yacht design needs clients. Without clients you’re just solving imaginary problems for imaginary people. I guess I just find the idea of assigning value to a man’s work according to whether or how much someone is willing to pay for it a bit depressing. For my part I hope the work I produce on my own time when I am inspired to create something is as high quality as the work I produce when I am inspired to fulfill the obligations of a contract. I’m with Majnun. Proclaim beauty where you find it. If people decide you’re crazy, so be it.

    LAYLA seems an appropriate name for this week’s post for there is a type of madness to the process of creating these designs, and some to be found in the people that pursue this type of work. There is also, I hope, a measure of beauty to the designs themselves. The point of these posts, if I’ve never clearly spelled it out, is that there so much more to yacht design than can be found in the offerings of production boatbuilders. On a more personal level,these posts help to manage my own affliction. I draw these boats, and more recently have begun to write about them, because they find a way into my head and I’d like to get them out. Certainly I hope that someone will see them, admire our work, and then approach us about getting the boat in their head out and down on paper. But that’s the rational part and it and doesn’t address the elementof compulsion involved. If I can get these boats out and down on paper, or in renderings,maybe then I can have my head back. Well at least for a little while
    .
     
  7. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

  8. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    In the "old days" it seems insurance companies would hive a 10% discount for a motorsailor.

    They figured with 2 sources of power it could save it self from the worst case , a gale on a lee shore.

    The rule of thumb was the water line squared , divided in half was the minimum sail area required.

    So a 40ft LWL sq is 1600 , 1/2 is 800 sq ft of sail to qualify.

    This would suggest the minimum sail area for a 50/50 .

    What we would call a 90/90 today might have far more sail area.

    FF
     
  9. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Fred, I would direct your attention to this posting#75 that I made:

    And with more modern sail handling gear,.....a larger, very quicky reefable sail area could be utilized.
     
  10. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    Even a small amount of sail can make a considerable difference though. Fred's rule above suggests something over 200 square feet for the 4000 pound TimberCoast 22'. Yet she is rigged with about 84 sq ft. As reported by the owner.....

    Sailing performance: She will do 2.5 knots in 10 knots breeze on a beam reach, about 3 knots in 12 knots, and 4 knots in 15 knots of wind. She will also point upwind at about 60 degrees to true wind angle.

    Alpinewithsailsm.jpg
     
  11. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Alden Sportfishing Cruiser

    I was just going thru some old paper files and found this clipping I had saved of an 1941 50 ft Alden sportfishing cruiser. You can see the lineage with the later Hawksbill design

    It also had reminded me of another old wooden sportfisher, a 1941 43' Carl Adams I had once owned for a short period of time. Rumor had it that Hemmingway once fished off it.

    This vessel looks like it has some sort of mast on it?...maybe for a crow's nest or something. Maybe I'll put something over on the sportfish zone and see if any old timers recognize it.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Breetah
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    Breetah New Member

    Wandering

    My Grandfather built "the Clubhouse" on the ICW @ Gause Landing, NC (33º53'42.00"N - 78º26'43.60"W) in the 1920's. Big porch, long table, rocking chairs, and a dock, a really great dock - where my young life formed and bond with the ocean and all its treasures and promise. My brothers and I lived on the dock and slept under the stars, where boats and ships and barges and surely pirates passed. Sterling Hayden's book was there (Wanderer) and while I was too young to finish the read - like you the dye was cast - the dream founded and my desire continues now at 50 to take up the same courage and follow his wake out toward my own adventure and discovery. I had forgotten this book and a painting of a motor-sailer i did as a lad - wondering now if it wasn't Mr Hayden's book that continues to keep motorsailers dear. Thank you for the drawing of the Rhodes/Alden (two hero's) Motor-sailer. What a beauty! Thanks for the inspiration to read Hayden's log "Wanderer" again - for it is my hearts desire.
    Do you by chance have a larger scan? Peace, wind and water.
     
  13. marcyjeanster
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    marcyjeanster Trade Wind

    Trade Wind 1938

    Hi! I just found out about your forum and wanted to ask if you had ever heard of Trade Wind, a 1938 Alden Motor Sailer, christened Trade Wind but with other former names 'Marigold' and 'Tsunami." There is a short video on Youtube, under 'Restoration of Trade Wind,' which shows her after her recent three-year restoration at Rockport Marine in Rockport, Maine.
    My husband Michael Brenner and I are cruising the East Coast of the US now. We made it as far as Sampson Key in the Exhumas in February.

    My husband has much of the documentation for the vessel, including blueprints and original line drawings. But we are very curious as to what she did in World War II.
    If you have any info, please inform!

    Thanks,

    Marcy
     
  14. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    I was just reading back thru this subject thread and noted this entry. I am working on this very subject of a 'modernized' Alden 57.
     

  15. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "Thus, my outcry for a newly designed version of the Hawksbill."

    Any "new" version will probably be a computer design , not a hand drawn beauty.

    New, might have more interior volume , and even motor or sail better, but no chance it will LOOK as good.

    FF
     
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