Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Apr 11, 2006.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Moth on Foils: 31.1 knots(35.8mph)

    According to the front page of SA this is Scott Babbage at 30+. He just set the class record at 31.1 knots:
    (click on image)
     

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  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Moth on Foils!----- mods etc

    Excerpt(written before final results were known) from article on SA front page by Matt Knowles: http://www.sailinganarchy.com/index_page1.php
    (emphasis by DL)

    There have been two major stories running through the regatta here in Belmont: the US wing sails and the dominant performance of the Australian “Moth Squad.”

    The Aussie Moth Squad (primary actors: Joe Turner, Nathan Outteridge, Tom Slingsby, and Ian Jenson) has been dominant. Their sailors hold 1st, 2nd, 6th, and 9th place. Simply put, they have checked all the boxes: start with highly talented sailors with very well set up boats, spend hundreds of hours of practice at the venue, and then harvest success.

    As far as we’ve been able to gather the Moth Squad guys have made a few modifications to their Mach2s. The primary changes have been to cut off the tips of their main foils to reduce drag (at a penalty of slightly reduced lift and stability) and running very slow gearing on their wands/flaps. On a Moth, each wand position corresponds to a certain position of the flap on the front horizontal foil. If the wand is at x degrees, the flap is at y degrees. By adjusting the ride height controller (now standard equipment across the fleet), you can make the flap higher or lower (and the boat lower or higher, respectively) for each wand position. Changing the gearing is a bit different: gearing is the rate at which the flap position changes for a given change in wand position. Fast gearing means the flap moves a lot for a given wand movement. Slow gearing means the flap moves more slowly for the same amount of wand movement. A fast ratio can be draggy but also helps keep the boat at a stable altitude. On the other hand, in a flat water venue like Belmont, it is fast to use a very slow ratio, as the Moth Squad has demonstrated.I’ve heard a few grumblings (mostly from other Australians) that the Moth Squadies has been quite exclusive as to who they will train with and also very tight lipped about the changes their made to their boats. I don’t fault the Moth Squad for this at all. Their performance has made clear the value of having a small team of talented guys working hard. Likewise, if they’ve found ways to make their boats faster, I can certainly understand the drive to keep that information close, at least until the end of the regatta. Again, it looks like they’ve got the formula just right, and everything else is just sour grapes.

    As for the wings: after a contentious process in the days leading up to Worlds, three wings were successfully measured in. The initial plan was for Bora and Bear (George Peet) to race with them, but the team simply ran out of time to get the wings to where we needed them to be. Even help from the best small-boat wing designers in the world (Steve Killing and Magnus Clarke) can’t beat the clock. The three identical wings the US team brought to Belmont have shown great promise in certain conditions, but also considerable weaknesses. The biggest weakness is light air (marginal foiling). The wings also struggle at times downwind; if they are not set up and trimmed perfectly, they can be slow downhill. George and Bora decided their best chance to win the Worlds was to use soft sails. Had the regatta taken place a few weeks later, that decision could well have been different.
    After all that we went through to get the wings measured, we felt that we owed it to the class to show what the wings could and couldn’t do. Charlie McKee stepped up to the plate and has been sailing the wings in both the Australian Nationals / Pre-Worlds and the Worlds. Even with just a few days to learn how to sail a wing moth, Charlie has put up some impressive top-10 race finishes. There have also been a lot of breakages and consequently, a lot of long nights for our expert wing repairman and coach Rob Patterson. I’m sure Charlie would be the first to admit that whatever success he has had on the water has been premised on Rob’s hard work in the container at night.

    At the 2010 Worlds in Dubai, many people felt that the US team had blown its preparation by focusing on heavy air sailing when the venue turned out to be quite light and the paramount skill was getting on the foils, not going fast once foiling. The obvious question is this: by spending a huge amount of time and money on developing wings, has the US team again blown its preparation when none of our top sailors is even using a wing? The answer is more complicated than a simple yes or no. One could argue that we should have made a conservative investment by maximizing the time on the water we had and focusing on incremental rather than revolutionary improvements. On the other hand, it could be that the Moth Squad was going to be unbeatable at their home venue considering that the US team would lose months of training time due to winter conditions and shipping delays, so perhaps going all-in on wings was the right gamble to make at the time, even though it turned out not to be a winning one. Moreover, this sort of investment in development is the lifeblood of the Moth class, no matter the results here in Belmont.

    None of this matters right now. At the moment all we’re focused on is helping Bora do what he needs to do in the next 6 races to win the 2011 Worlds. It’s going to take a huge effort to beat Nathan on his home turf, but the look of confidence on Bora’s face after racing yesterday suggests he has a chance to do it. -Matt Knowles.

    -------------------
    Rather humorous lead in typo to the above article:

    This story is a bit late in running, but it’s a wonderfully coherent explanation of how things went down at the 2011 Zhik Moth Worlds in Belmont, Australia from Mothie blogger, rules guru, and one of our favorite young writers, Matt Knowles. Spoiler alert: Nathan Outteridge won the Worlds with a race to spare, with Moth Squaddie Joe Turner in second and Event Chairman Scott Babbage in third. Gulari was the first non Bora Gulari in third. Here are the results. Also a HUGE thanks to Aussie/French photographer Yann Audic/splash splash photography for this high res work from the Worlds. Please respect his copyright and be sure to check out his full web portfolio for more great shots, and look for more features from Yann to come.
     
  4. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Moth on Foils!

    "technolgica" (Bruce) on DA today:

    Posted Today, 04:41 PM

    Jethrow, on 14 January 2011 - 04:19 AM, said:

    I bet that if you brought in a rule that to compete in a world championship you had to build 90% of equipment on you boat. you would still see most of the same people competing because the guys sailing these goats are having a ball.


    Sorry Jethrow but this is simply not right anymore, the demographics of the class have changed significantly, and about 10 boats at the worlds were home builds. The home built numbers are rapidly dwindling. The current success of the class is primarily because of the success of the Bladerider and Mach2 in making boats available.

    The current moth sailor at the front 50% of the fleet buys stock M2 kit, tweaks that and spends 3-5 days a week on the water. If you want any sort of result, you simple need to put the hours in on the water, not in the shed.

    And it is the ability to be able to do that, that has led to the class being as poplar as it currently is.


    My blog
    My moth podcast: www.mothcast.net
    Search the mothosphere: www.mothosphere.com
     
  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Moth on Foils!----Veal Heel

    Just a small tribute to Rohan Veal the first foiler World Champion and pioneer of the technique where the whole CG of the boat moves to weather sailing upwind-the first boat in sailing history to be able to do this. It is a contribution to sailing that will have tremendous ramifications as larger bi-foilers are developed:

    (click on image)
     

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  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Moth on Foils!

    Phil Stevo on DA:


    Posted Today, 05:50 PM

    response to blackensign, on 16 January 2011 - 07:15 AM, said:

    I think what some of the purist developmental mothies need to look at the history of the development of the class. Those with the cash to do whatever they want (which most don't have) seem to be of the opinion that anything that can make the boat go faster should be allowed in the spirit of development, without even thinking about what the class is other than developmental.
    This is contrary to the fact in the moth demography. It is the new people in the class who have bought the most expensive factory built boats who are generally against any wing development. It is the home builders and the low cost tinkers who are pro wing. Most of these consider that they can build a wing cheaper than buying a mast boom and sail.

    ---Moths were always roof toppable but in some places like Japan even the wings needed to be removed for storage and transport. When foils started we all needed a bigger car and a travel box because they were fixed Ts. Now design ingenuity can fit an entire Mach2 is a very small travel box, including dissmantleable foils and two piece mast. I am confident that clever moth designers will soom have wing rigs which can be folded and dismanled enough to be transported on top of the boat.

    --A lot of people sail moths becasue its fun to do. Despite the video images from Belmont which might give the impression there were only 20 black boats in the event, there were another 70 people out there without any real ambitions other that to join in and have fun sailing these great boats, They did not put in the long hours practicing technique, they did not invest heavilly in testing multiple masts and sails and they did not purchase extra foils for trimming and adjustment for different conditions, many did not really spend much on their boats at all. But they all enjoy sailing the boats so much that their place in the regatta was not really important. If the top of the fleet decide they need a wing to win, most of the fleet will watch as they did this year, but they will still enjoy racing at the lower level.


    ---The best way to get into the class is to purchase a well sorted existing boat. Something a few years old which has been looked after and raced so you know it will sail and foil properly. Having all the settings sorted is absolutley necessary. If you are isolated from experienced moth sailors, you will have great difficulty getting it right. There are about 200 good bladriders and maybe 40 good prowlers out there which are worth much less than half a new Mach2.

    ---Home building your first moth will be time consuming and end up expensive as you rebuild the things you get wrong, break or generally mess up. You will end up with something at least two years out of date, proabbly heavy and slow. Build one later once you get to know what a mothis all about.


    end response to blackensign
    ==================
    Measurement of wings is something for the class to sort out. That process has commenced. IMCA will get to vote on several issues WRT wings and measurement in coming months. Bora's wings were measured under ISAF instruction/consession for the regatta only.

    The two or three elements of the CCat type wing is one hotly debated topic. Area has never been an issue becaue the class rules and the iSAF Sail Area Measurement Manual do not allow any area loopholes. All area is measured with some discrepancies which will be sorted in the current rule revision. (These include the 50mm luff pocket deduction and the 90mm mast width deduction.)

    In design terms rigs with wide masts and soft sails need to be stronger than similar masts with rigid trailing edges becasue the soft sail still applies high luff (compression)and leach (bending)loads to the mast. Consequently the hybrid rig ends up heavier. The CCats found this 25 years ago.

    Those of us who looked closely at the O2 wings at Belmont were amazed at how lightly and simply they were built. Yes they broke but not often and lessons were learned which will make the next gereation better in both aerodynamic and structural design, if the class provides the oportunity.

    Phil S
    Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
    2011 ZHIK Moth Worlds Belmont NSW
     
  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Moth on Foils-Gulari's edge

    From Scuttlebutt tonight:

    ABSOLUTE DOMINATION
    Belmont, NSW, Australia (January 14, 2011) - When Nathan Outteridge (AUS) finished sixth in the next to last race of the 109-boat 2011 Zhik Moth World Championships, it was all he needed to take the title he justly deserved. Outteridge did not need to sail the final race, but did, continuing a week of domination that saw his 6th as the only time he slipped outside of the top five. In fact, Outteridge swept through the Australian Nationals (pre-worlds) by winning four of the five races, swept through the Worlds qualifying series by winning eight of the nine races, and then sailed an exceedingly steady Worlds series in the 55 boat championship fleet.

    The final day gave the fleet a reprieve with more manageable winds, courtesy of an earlier schedule that got the fleet started before the wind gods woke up. But this also meant for marginal foiling. “Four to twelve knots made for a rather connect-the-dots frenzy (the dots being the puffs of wind),” shared Brad Funk (USA). “Foil. Stop. Foil again. Stop again. The whole situation made for some laughing and cussing all at the same time. And movement up and back through the fleet. (In one race) I went from 2nd to 25th to 10th to 15th all in three minutes.”

    For the American contingent, their campaign was initially marked by a focus on wing sail development, but ultimately was a demonstration of what is now needed to compete at the World level in what proved to be a very long and windy event. While Samantha England (AUS) beat out American Lindsay Bergan by one point for the title of leading lady at 47th and 48th place, Bora Gulari led overall in 6th place. Gulari’s time in the boat remains his advantage, but the edge that helped him win the 2009 Worlds in Cascade Locks, Oregon has been consumed by the class’ continued growth in competition.
     
  8. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    Well, I don't know if I completely agree with Scuttlebutt's assessment. It is pretty clear that much like Hamlin established domination in 505s with Team Tuesday, Outteridge and company followed the same well-established path to success in the Moth class. Time on the boat is one thing, but a program of regular competition and objective head-to-head performance tuning in a group is needed now.

    Therein lies the path forward for people wishing to dethrone Outteridge - get a suitable group of sailors together on a regular basis for training and then work the program to success. Bora Gulari has Bear as a training partner, but this has just been proven as not enough - there needs to be five or six people at the same performance level pushing each other and measuring and logging the sessions. Turner, Outteridge and company tweaked their Mach II foils, wand setup etc. in a very scientific manner - there wasn't any doubt what the results would be and exactly what the downside tradeoffs were.

    The geography of the United States & Canada is a problem - as is the wide geographical dispersion of talented people. It isn't like Australia with most competitors clustered in three or so centers. For Bora (or anyone here) to succeed, the west coasters, the central people and the east coasters need to get together to make things happen. Concentrated competition is necessary.

    I'm not certain about the "Magic Bullet" approach as being valuable to winning the world championships. What I mean with this is searching for a major hardware technological solution to help the win instead of taking the incremental approach focusing on training and optimization of people (software). Wing research and development is fundamentally a search for a magic bullet. I've got to wonder how different/closer the results would have been if Rast, Funk, McKee, Gulari and Peet (etc.) spent the months of wing development time intensively training together 3-4 days per week instead.

    What this points to me is that success in the Moth class has changed somewhat from a group of tinkerers and innovators into a sailing class where professional / semiprofessional sailors need the financial resources behind them to afford to train in an organized fashion to a competitive level. Bruce's comments regarding time in the boat versus time in the shed ring true. Time in the boat means that holding down a full time job, living where there is a 4 month season and spending more time tinkering than sailing is no longer possible.

    Unlike many people who feel legislation is the cure to progress, I think these changes to the Moth class are permanent. I'm not sure any of this is good for the long term health of the class.

    --
    CutOnce
     
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  9. P Flados
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    P Flados Senior Member

    Very good summary.

    If your definition of success is winning at the worlds on a regular basis, all of the above rings so very true. A "magic bullet" approach can still give a team an advantage, but the competitive training piece would still be a requirement on top of any technological advance. The existing technology is just so good that the very skilled sailor is really tough to beat even if your boat is a little better.

    The moth has advance far enough such that big leaps due to gear are not likely and would be hard to come by. On the other hand it is not mature enough such that the "ideal setup" has been fully explored. The two huge advantages of the team training approach are that you can get systematic with the "tweaking" that gives your boat a small edge and at the same time, the sailors get a real feel for what works best under the constantly changing conditions that are faced during actual racing.

    The above discussion is the safe bet to top performance at the worlds. The effort by Bora & co. with the wing was something of a gamble, was a good effort and may pay off yet. Given the stated disadvantages of the US fleet (regular group training is hard), it was worth the effort. It would have been hard for Bora to beat Nathan even if he had not been distracted by the wing (home field advantage is real). Also, there is an outside chance that wing technology may advance such that it is an advantage in the next worlds. If so, the US team has a head start compared to everyone other than Adam May.

    Once again, the above is all in the context of winning at a world regatta. Lots of people are absolutely thrilled to foil competently and blow past all of the other boats sailing on their home lake on a given weekend. Using a wing that you built yourself would add greatly to this kind of satisfaction.
     
  10. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    There's no doubt that being a full-time Olympic sailor is a huge advantage. That brings issues to a class, as the Moths may find out.

    However, claims that the locals did so well partly because of tide and current are hard to credit given that the lake is tideless and there is therefore basically no current. And the fact that Australia has just 6.5% of the population of the USA but 80% of the area makes it hard to see demographics as an advantage - there's almost as many people in the LA area as in all of Oz. The SF area (7,000 sq miles) has 7.4 million people whereas Sydney (5,300 sq miles) has 4.5 million and the surrounding area has much lower density.

    So if we can get 4 talented sailors "together" (actually I think there's about 100 miles between their homes and training bases) then the 19 million in LA or the 7.4 million in SF should be able to get even more, if all other factors were comparable.

    Years go, we Aussies used to explain the Olympic success of Kiwis in the same way - by saying that all their top sailors were concentrated in Auckland. That didn't explain how they managed to create a whole bunch of Olympic-level sailors in a city that is smaller than many of ours, or why the Kiwis have collapsed in Olympic terms recently. In the same way, the success of the Moth squad (or our Laser sailors and the rest of the Olympic team) is hard to put down to demographics and geography, which are probably AGAINST such a thinly-populated widespread country.

    Similarly, Seattle has at times lead the world in Int 14s and Perth (the world's most isolated major city) has lead the world in foiling Moths. New Zealand had an outstanding sailing record at Olympic level. So did the USA. Both have now slumped while Australia has climbed the ladder, but the demographics and geographies of the countries haven't changed. So demographics aren't that important.

    From the outside, sailing in the USA seems very different from sailing in Oz, NZ or the UK. The USA seems to have a very elitist sailing structure. In comparison, sailing in Australia is traditionally more egalitarian. For example, one former sailing Olympian from the same area as Slingsby and Outteridge was an electrician working in coal mines, and the parents of another were cleaners in the local government schools. And down here, we have many clubs that are specifically dinghy or skiff clubs, and that concentration on small boats means that the talent isn't lured into big boats or driven away by people who believe that small boats don't count.

    Such things may be much more important than any supposed geographic advantage. To be honest, when it comes to supposed issues with high performance sailing, sailors in the USA seem to ignore such factors and blame non-sailors and US Sailing, rather than look at the factors US sailors themselves can control.

    BTW P Flados, can you tell us where these "lots of people" are????? Foilers are fantastic, but on any given day there are many. many more "lots of people" who are out sailing other craft. You haven't given any factual basis (i.e. number of leisure foilers, evidence that obsolescent foilers are being snapped up, etc) for your repeated claim that there will be a clamour for obsolescent foilers.

    Certainly there ARE people who just go out and foil for fun - I know some. But whether there is a significant number is another matter. Certainly there is not a very strong demand for outmoded craft in other development classes, even when the outmoded craft remain very high in performance.

    How many development classes race in your part of the world?
     
  11. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    Nice 1000th post.

    There is a huge cultural difference difference in regards to yachting in North America. It isn't regarded as a respected proletarian sport. When I mention to neighbors that I'm a member of a sailing club, they immediately assume I'm a trust fund boomer with money to burn drinking Chardonnay wearing an ascot. Not true.

    Sailing as a serious sport is not invisible in Australia. There is a long tradition of wagering, sponsors and clubs. Although you make a case regarding geography, in reality if you drew a 100 mile circle around Sydney you'd have more dry sailing clubs and performance dinghy venues than exist in all of Canada. I would not be surprised if the total count there was not greater than all of the comparable clubs in the US. I say comparable meaning clubs with active dinghy race programs using boat classes designed after the first half of the last century.

    You seem to think North American sailors have some degree of control over their dinghy options - in reality they do not as fleet discipline is pretty strong. In computer terms it is pretty much FIFO (fit in or frig off). If the local fleet sails Albacores, you sail an Albacore. My club briefly flirted with 49ers - getting up to four at one point, and the I14s quickly absorbed the misguided heathens. And I'm in one of two progressive skiff-friendly clubs in the country. We've got one lonely aged Prowler that gets used infrequently when it's owner can't get crew in his I14 or 505.

    I agree that there isn't line ups of people looking for used foilers. I've been in the club bar listening to the majority of bar crew talking about the lone dude crashing frequently on his Prowler like he's mad as a hatter. I haven't seen queues of skiff sailors begging to get a chance on the Prowler. There is more interest in the kite boards that sail from a nearby beach, because at least they've got shore crew wearing little waiting.

    Although here on boatdesign.net there are vocal North American people that are obsessed with performance technology, in reality there really aren't many people here even aware it (foiling, wing sails etc.) exists. Realistically, 95% of North American sailors think of dinghies as kid's toys they send their children to learn sail in before they can be useful citizens working the bow on their keel boats once they grow up.

    --
    CutOnce
     
  12. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Moth on Foils!----Stratospheric Class

    More and more people all over the world are recognizing the significance of the Moth-and not just from the technical side:

    The Moths are a stratospheric class that the world is watching right now with collective gasps of amazement. The intrigue these little boats are causing just can't go un-checked by the Olympic authorities and the dead-heads at ISAF. This class is the key to a brighter future for sailing at all levels and the good they can do for attracting generations going forward into the sport is not to be underestimated or ignored.

    from http://www.rule69blog.com/archive/2011/january/1550/
     
  13. Eralnd44
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    Eralnd44 Wanderer

    This more explanation on big words as to post above on rule69 page out of magnus.

    "I've been a tub-thumper for the Moth for decades now and they will always feature heavily on this site. I'm an unashamed fan" Is same medicine as to doug lord.
    how many are Moth as to Laser. maybe Laser make more to sail on this year than Moth is all time.
     
  14. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Moth on Foils!---THE WING

    From Phil S on DA today:

    Posted 16 January 2011 - 02:29 AM

    The status of wings is a bit obscure still.

    I have not seen the ISAF wording but my understanding is that wings as such are not banned but the class measurement rules do not say how they should be measured and so they can not be provided with a valid measurement certficate to be class compliant. For Belmont ISAF specified that they be measured by the ISAF Sail Area Manual (as per CCats) and they were allowed to race after they were deemed under size via this method. Now the regatta is over the wings are no longer Moth legal as the ISAF decision has time lapsed.

    The construction and design of several wings stirred us enough controversy mid 2010 and highlighted several dicrepancies, inconsistancies and irregularities in the present Class rule wording. Adam initiated discussion in about Sept 2010 to sort these things out, but the Wing legality debate took over all interest and not much progress has occurred.

    This process has restarted. I expect the outcome will most likely be two motions to be put forward to IMCA members and member associations. These would likely be

    #1. A tidy up of the rules to remove inconsistancies and ambiguities especially with regard to wide wing mast, and by extension wing sails. As these are not presently banned we need to define how they should be measured equitably with present soft sail rigs. Examples are the 50mm luff pocket deduction and the 90mm wing mast area deduction.
    #2. A separate vote to decide if and what wings sails should be banned.

    If #2 is passed we will need to decide and agree a definition of when a wing mast/soft sail combo becomes a banned wing rig, ie how big a wing mast will be allowed. This one was built for a scow moth in the 1980s so a precident has been set. Its about 500mm wide. A smaller 150mm wide mast competed at Belmont.


    If #2 is not passed we will need to decide and agree on what limitation will be applied. For example many moth sailors consider the multi-element wings to be beyond the class restriction of one sail only. Also the present mast length rule far exceeds the sail luff rule and its generally agreed that wing rigs should not exceed the luff limit on the leading edge. I expect that we can include these restrictions in the #1 rule tidy up even if they become redundant (for the time being) as a result of the #2 vote.

    The class administration desire that this process be completed before the nothern summer championships like the Euros.
    Phil S
    Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
    2011 ZHIK Moth Worlds Belmont NSW
     

  15. wet feet
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    wet feet Senior Member

    It's a very long time since I last sailed a Moth and the one thing I would not wish upon the class is Olympic selection.A one design foiler might be entertaining for the spectators and the politicians involved in the whole circus could amuse themselves for a very long time agonising over definitions and minutiae.Moth sailors could continue to innovate and have fun for no other purpose than to demonstrate the superiority of their ideas and their sailing ability on the race course.
     
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