Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Apr 11, 2006.

  1. Stephen Ditmore
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    Stephen Ditmore Senior Member

    When calculating the world's Moth population, don't forget to include all those Europe one-designs. The Europe was originally the Europa Moth, and now that Europe is no longer an Olympic class, it's a great time to buy one and race it as a Moth!

    To race as a Classic Moth, the upper roach and upper batten may have to be trimmed a little. To race as a Modern or International Moth means buying a new sail - and possibly a new mast - and adding racks. T-foils? -- that's up to you!

    The Moth is, of course, a development class. While the number of boats may be less than one-design classes, the number of designs is greater. Thus, the influence and visibility, and I would argue the fun, is greater. The number of Volvo 70s, or TransPac 52s, is not huge either.... but they're exciting and very visible! And their numbers are likely to increase, as have the Open 60s and MiniTransats.
     
  2. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Amen to all that, Stephen.

    Can I just reinforce that I don't think any of us in this thread are anti development class. I think many of us (like me) are very interested in development classes and would love to see them doing a lot better than they are at the moment. That's why we want to see some realism - because only a realistic look at what makes boats popular will help us to work out how to make development classes more popular again.

    I would certainly argue that the fun is greater - if it was, people would get development classes. It's perhaps just different in the same way that the fun of offshore racing yachts is different from the fun of Lasers or of wavesailing windsurfers.

    Here in the states of New South Wales, we used to have 200 Moths registered according to class returns. We'd all love it if that returned, it would be great to work out to make it happen in a realistic manner rather than just hyping the performance route which has clearly been a major failure in terms of increasing popularity (NOT in other terms, the fast boats are great).
     
  3. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Major failure?

    I think that you're probably wrong CT. There are two threads on SA just effervescing with enthusiasm for the foiler Moth. According to many I've talked to in the US ,Austalia, the UK and Italy there has never been as much interest the Moth as there is now because of the super refined bifoil system. And I have to go back to the clear cut evidence of at least three builders (mentioned earlier) devoting much of their existing or soon to be existing production to the foiler Moth. One company claims that it's initial capacity will be 16 per month.
    There quite simply has NEVER been a small sailboat like this boat-regularly beating much larger boats and there has never been an 11 or 12' monohull sailboat that beats much larger catamarans around a course in conditions suitable to them both. This is history and it is MUCH bigger than the Moth though inspired by it; it is a new way to sail that was not available anywhere in the world prior to about 1999.
    CT, you use the word "hype" too loosely, I think, as in "hyping the performance route" ; the performance of the foiler Moth is like nothing else in history(fact not hype) in it's size range-both low speed,high speed and round the course : and as such merely reporting the facts is said ,by some, to be "hype".Not only that but there clearly has not been enough time for the hugely positive effect of the foiler Moth to show up in boat numbers but it has sure shown up in publicity: there has been more on the Moth in Seahorse in the last few years than probably ever before. And there are other indications like the invitation for the foiler Moth to participate in a major ISAF invitation only regatta-the only one of it's type in Australia; Sebastion Josse's sailing of the boat and so on....
    I think that this extraordinary level of performance across a very wide range of wind speed is what is so amazing to so many people and why there is such interest(and investment) in the Moth class now .Almost 30 knots max speed and 14 knots in a 5 knot breeze in a small monohull sailboat is phenomenal any way you look at it.
    But I've said it a million times: this is only the begining of the monofoiler revolution....
     
  4. usa2
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    usa2 Senior Member

    "But I've said it a million times: this is only the begining of the monofoiler revolution...."

    You also said the same thing about canting keels.. So I assume we will see some parallels?
     
  5. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Canting keels

    Well,2, why don't you start a topic on the future of canting keels and I'll jump right in. Way before it happened I said that canting keels would revolutionize large monohulls- and they have with almost every major ocean race either having been won by or sailed in canting keel mono's. They have unquestionably proved themselves as the fastest technology used on monohull ocean racers TO THIS POINT. But technology is changing so fast that I think that, if the rules allow them, a new breed of foiled fixed/canting keel monos using on-deck movable ballast will raise the speed level to an altogether new and higher level.
    But this thread is not about sailing schools or monohull ocean racers or canting keel boats-but you start the party in it's own thread and I will be there,ok?!
     
  6. Stephen Ditmore
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    Stephen Ditmore Senior Member

    Actually I think there is a precident. Sailboards. I think even the Moth foilers have to give the sailboard credit for being there first.

    And I think the question concerning both is the same. Is it sufficiently user friendly to be taken seriously as a boat? Will it lead to something I'd take my wife & kids sailing in, or sail to Bermuda?

    And then there's the question that does seem pertinate to this thread, Doug ....when are we going to see you at a Moth regatta?
     
  7. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Stephen, no windsurfer I know can do 14 knots in a 5 knot breeze as Andrew of KA claims his new Bladerider can. While there are some similarities the differences are significant; especially if you listen to some detractors of windsurfing when they say that is "not sailing".I think both have made major historical contributions to sailing . But in my mind the "proof of concept" represented by the bi-foil hydrofoil system on the Moth has huge potential implications for the future of monohull design in a way the windsurfer never will. There are at least two major development programs aimed at applying the bi-foil hydrofoil system, first proved on the Moth, to larger monohull keelboats.There is no such direct application of windsurfing technology in ocean racing that I am aware of. And I believe that hydrofoil technology applied to monohull keelboats can be as safe as any other highspeed high performance sailboat in the ocean-but taking your wife and kids to Bermuda on a large monofoiler may take a while to become realistic though being able to take them on a daysail may not be all that far away.
    As to me coming to a Moth regatta-man I'd love to but I'm waay too heavy to be competitive in the class-that's why I've built one foiler and am getting ready to build another.
    A Moth regatta in the states with foiler participation will be a great event; do you see it happening anytime soon?
     
  8. Stephen Ditmore
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    Stephen Ditmore Senior Member

    I was hoping a surprise foiler would appear last Saturday in Brigantine NJ, but it didn't happen. The Modern Moth class is alive in the Americas, though, thanks to Scott Sandell - so the venue exists. If you're right about the foilers being dramatically faster you could still be the first to show up & sweep, and a few extra pounds shouldn't stop you.

    Scott'll doubtless be writing about the Brigantine regatta in MOTHBALLS! before long, and he's ready for a meetup in Sag Harbor anytime. I wish I could reveal Scott's future plans, but the when & where for that is his call. I'm after him to focus on the Americas in the next MOTHBALLS! issue. Hopefully people like you and Phil Locker will give Scott something to write about without having to burn up transoceanic cables!

    Once I've finished my Classic Moth and sailed it around a little, I'm interested in the possibility of developing a kit of precut Dibond panels so that anyone can build a Moth, Classic or Modern. Perhaps you could work with Sam Bradfield or Tom Speer to develop a foil kit to go with my hull kit...? I'm thinking my hull will be a little narrower than the Classic Moth I'm currently building, but wider than the Australian Moths, so that a wider slice of humanity can sail fast! Should you be ready with a T-foil kit before I'm ready with a new hull, Bob Ames has a hull design ready, and there's that plan of Scott's I can't tell you about...

    Cheers,
    Stephen
     
  9. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Moths USA

    Stephen , I know of at least two Fastacraft foilers coming to USA/Canada and KA Sail says they are "negotiating" with a US distributor for the Bladerider. From SA it appears that maybe a few Moth foiler wanabe's may be being built in the NE US and from the Moth forum I think I've read posts from two US foiler wannabe's one in Florida and one in North or South Carolina.
    Unfortunately, 160 pounds is about the top end for competitive foiling in the Moth class. Rohan Veal, World Champion is in the 140's. I think I read that Sam Pascoe of the UK is around 180 and therefore does well at top end speed according to Rohan.
    Thats why there is a need for a Peoples Foiler for the rest of us or maybe matching sail area to weight in the Moth class- but the politics of that would be impossible more than likely.
     
  10. Stephen Ditmore
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    Stephen Ditmore Senior Member

    Are you suggesting, to make Moths appealing to more people, we give them MORE sail?
     
  11. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Sail

    I haven't looked at that idea specifically in reference to the Moth but look at the specs for the aeroSKIFF under "Peoples Foiler": 130 sq.ft. SA on a 14' hull with a max crew weight of 250.
    If you go to the KA Sail Bladerider site(earlier post) you'll find that they are offering a new non class legal sail with one square meter more area for exactly that purpose.
     
  12. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    If we go by threads in SA (Dinghy), the hotest thread is about the Voodoo 16 Skiff. (828 Replies) Moths in NE US is 2nd with 218 Replies ... 3rd is 181 replies in a thread about two guys bashing each other. 5 of the top 10 threads are about skiffs.

    Conclusions?
    1. A 16ft Skiff has generated 4 times more interest than the Moth
    2. The Moth has generated slightly more interest than two skiff sailors calling each other names.
    3. Interest at SA is no measure of anything.

    If EVERY ONE of the 218 relies in the Moth thread bought a new cheeseburger, at 16 per month the orders would be filled in 13 months.

    In the last 5 years there have been about 45 boats at the Moth worlds, less than 40 at the Europeans.

    If foilers are the latest and greatest and have been around since 1999, why have the numbers remained the same (43 Boats in 2000, 41 in 2003 47 in 2005)? In 2005 50% of the 37 boat fleet at the Europeans were foilers. With 3 builders of foiler Moths, where are all the new boats?

    Where is the market for 16 boats a month from ONE builder in a open class?

    If foilers and KA's Bladerider are going to make the Moth class healthy, why would IMCA President Mark Robinson say:

    "The International Moth is currently at the bare minimum in terms of numbers/countries for us to continue as an ISAF International Class, and this is something IMCA thinks is imperative if we are to remain an effective healthy class, particularly in the UK and European markets where there are hundreds of classes all jostling for a position in the sailing world.

    As far as the representation at the ISAF Mid-year meetings, this was a representation by a commercial entity (KA Sail) seeking feedback on the possibility of a derivative of the Moth (the Bladerider with a 9m sail) making it into the Olympics in 2012 or 2016. There were neither official agenda items concerning the Bladerider or the Moth class discussed nor any votes taken at ISAF level at this meeting.

    As IMCA President, I have had a number of conversations with the senior ISAF Vice President (David Kellett from AUS), and stressed that this is not something supported by the Moth class in general particularly as the Moth is a development class and wishes to remain as such and also as ISAF tends to only favour 'one-design' type classes for the Olympics due to issues of level playing field in the Olympic Charter. He agreed with this position.

    We both agreed that it would be a long road ahead if KA Sail wanted to get the boat into the Olympics as there is not even a place for a 'high performance single hander' at the moment. Thus they first need to convince the ISAF Council (100+ member countries) that there is a need for this discipline in the Olympics, and then convince them that an 'evaluation event' needs to be conducted.

    Gee it doesn't sound like the Moth guys are real keen on the Bladerider ... much less effervescing with enthusiasm :)


    Seahorse? LOL
    "Seahorse Magazine... Seahorse the world's only dedicated offshore sailboat racing magazine."

    Coverage in a offshore racing magazine from the UK? WOW! LOL

    Moth's offshore ... what a concept! :)

    As far as the "major ISAF invitation" goes ...

    This is the only ISAF grade 1 event in Australia, and generally they only accept popular and well attended invited classes, however they said they will make an exception with the Moth class due to the attention it brings.

    That makes the Moths what? A sideshow? Like bearded ladies and two-headed boys at a carnival?
     
  13. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Anointing the King

    Doug,

    Your minions await your response to Hough's comments.

    Please let us know when the next iteration of the ArrowSkifferoo will be available. Truth is, you don't have any money for the enterprise, Eric is long gone with his association with the project and you’re just slinging hot air...again… as to the viability of the Arrow Skifferoo boat as a workable, feasible project.

    And while you're at it, please tell us if you have any kids who are of the age to sail solo in a development, or one design, class so we can verify your relevant understanding of what it takes to get "hooked-up" with a proper sailing effort as a youngster.

    Personally, I don't think you have one iota of a clue as to what it's like in this regard. I doubt that you have any kids at all, have little, to no, experience in the field of kids sailing, much less sports in general and are way out of your depth in this regard.

    Out of your depth.

    Please tell me this isn't so?

    We, collectively, await your response... Oh King of the Foiler huff.

    Chris
     
  14. frosh
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    frosh Senior Member

    Why waste our energy?(or you could starve waiting)

    Chris, "his majesty", king of foils, aint gonna answer any more questions, if in fact he has ever answered to any of his critics. It seems to me that his life is mainly about seeking attention through these forums. He gets a lot of negative attention, and occasionally seems to con some-one to worship at his footstool. Obviously he has nothing from personal experience worth relating to us, that know a little more.
    But it doesnt matter to him! All attention he gets is great for massaging his ego.
    What is more irksome is that reading between the lines his majesty has no care in the world whether the sport we love provides any pleasure for the masses. And whether the kids will have a viable infrastructure for learning the basics of sailing and getting into racing at a beginners level in a decades time. I suspect he doesn't have any, and why care about any one elses kids? He is only barracking for the elitist few, who seek glory in being the first to achieve a specific goal, (such as 27.7 knots) In their achievement he hopes to bask in some sort of reflected glory.
    In reply to pertinent questions you get huff and puff such as:
    "Stephen, no windsurfer I know can do 14 knots in a 5 knot breeze as Andrew of KA claims his new Bladerider can."

    and also:

    "And I believe that hydrofoil technology applied to monohull keelboats can be as safe as any other highspeed high performance sailboat in the ocean."

    In the first instance this is still wishful thinking, and in the second may he be blessed with being the first to head out into the open ocean on such a yacht.
    He might be suprised to learn that IMCA has got pretty close to being at a critical mass (going downwards) for the Moth to continue as a recognised international class. The UK might be doing OK but I don't believe any other countries have anything to boast about regarding their turnout at Moth events.
    There is no way that Moth sailing would have got to the sad state it is in within Australia (which was the main stronghold for fleets for several decades), if we had kept going as the scow Aussie Moth. Probably about three people would argue that it is not in a sad state as now a few of them go so quickly. I say so what? What has it done for the sport in broader terms?
     

  15. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    foil kits

    Stephen, foil kits are available now from Fastacraft(www.fastacraft.com) and may also be available from Full force; I don't think the Bladerider foils are available as a ready to go kit yet.Fastacraft uses a unique method of joining the foils-I have two sets(one for about 5 years ,one for about 2 1/2 years) that have never failed in rigorous use-I highly recommend them.
    I think I read on SA that Steve Clark or a friend of his may be trying to come up with a foil kit as well.
    Whatever you do make sure that you get the altitude control system(wand) matched for your foils-that will save a bunch of time.
     
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