Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Apr 11, 2006.

  1. Munter
    Joined: Jul 2007
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    Munter Amateur

    Perhaps the creation of a box rule that is open to other foil configurations is one way to drive foil development forward. Nothing sorts out fanciful dreams from reality faster than a racecourse!
    Maybe the rules could be along the lines of:
    Max length
    Max beam
    Min weight
    Max height (say tip of foils to tip of mast?)
    Max sail area
    Foil configuration - open
    Hull type - open?

    If you were to pick an achievable min weight people could spend the mass budget on new ideas to see whether they were worthwhile and perhaps reduce the need for an all-carbon machine (though foils and other highly loaded parts will allways need the strongest material available).

    For a singlehander I would think that the boat should stay at or under 12 feet. Anything bigger starts to cost more and would be more difficult to handle. Part of the moth's appeal is that it can pretty much be lifted by the skipper into the water sideways independently making the whole task easier.

    Anyway - creating a box rule for foilers is probably like herding cats. Everyone will have their own ideas and it would probably be difficult to settle on an agreed "box".
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==============
    In my opinion, I directly quoted(post #978) what you said about Moths vs F16's. I did not quote the part where you editorialized as to why it happened. As you can see if you read this thread there are many,many verifiable instances of where what you said about foiler Moths vs cats is backed up 100% without any editorializing at all. I stand by what I quoted and why.
    Your editorial:
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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    Great comments. You may be familiar with Brett Burvils Moth-the first Moth foiler to win a race. It was a surface piercing foiler with three foils-two up front and one t-foil on the rudder-it is similar to the Hydroptere configuration except for the beam: Hydoptere is 1.3 times as wide as it is long-the Moth is only 56% as wide as it is long(including the rudder gantry). Big difference and a partial explanation why the Burvill foiler was said to be difficult to control downwind. But the boat showed bursts of great speed. However, I don't think it would compete with a bi-foiler even if subjected to the rigorous development the two foil boat has seen UNLESS it could have a length to beam ratio similar to Hydropteres. There are two main things against it: more foil area just before takeoff and 1/3rd more surface piercing foil drag underway. One the plus side its foil area would adjust to the optimum all time whereas the bi-foiler(so far) is stuck with just one immersed area. It sure would great to see and unrestricted competition between the two types-even at Hydropteres size!
     
  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    --------------------------------------
    Great idea so long as the max beam was what was ideal for a surface piercer. As I mentioned above, the Moth Class rules artificially restrict the beam to the detriment of a surface piercer. But I like your idea-I think it could be a new "International C Class Sailboat Rule"(or whatever) and take over(from C Class Cats) as the Race for the fastest sailboat at any given length.
    How about:
    LOA 25'
    Beam 32'(max)
    Weight unrestricted
    SA 300 sq.ft.
    crew 2
    must be raced on a course( specific-like windward leeward or triangle windward leeward)
    Not limited to foilers or multihulls-no other restrictions
     
  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Moth on Foils!-USA-Pacific Coast Championships

    From Scuttlebutt:
    The winner at the PCC's was never really in doubt. U.S. Rolex Yachtsman of
    the Year Bora Gulari has continued to improve since his historic World
    Championship win last year, and he proved nearly unbeatable by winning 11 of
    14 races. Dalton Bergan has also been working hard, and was a close second
    in most races, and winning two. It was a great battle for third, with the
    winter training and preparation of George Peet an even match for the regatta
    savvy of Charlie McKee. In the end, Charlie nipped George for the last
    podium spot, with Jonathan McKee rounding out the top 5. Bora also won the
    slalom competition on Saturday, just getting around Dalton at the finish.

    For the full report with results, and to watch the video, here is the link:
    http://forum.sailingscuttlebutt.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=9023
    --------------------------
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2010
  6. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Moth on Foils-Fastest Sailboat Under 20'!

    Interesting(and a bit contentious) discussion about the rules for the 2010 Dubai Worlds: should pumping be allowed?
    http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=103144
    ----------
    Gulari on rule 42(from Sailing Anarchy 2/4/10):
    " We also seemed to settle on the idea that if you are trying to get on a foil, rule 42 does not really work. But if you are just going in a straight line with no attempts to foil then rule 42 should apply. If you are on the fence about getting a boat, do it! It will be the best sailing you have ever done (as long as you don’t mind getting wet). "

    02/04/10
    ===================================
    2/10/10 Interesting read from Mach II website-seems incredible:

    "Caring for your foils...

    We want to advise you that extremely high temperatures can have a detrimental affect on foils. If you sail in typically hot enviroments, or are planning on attending events in hot climates please be aware that your foils are highly technical pieces of equipment and accordingly care is need in looking after them.


    Mach 2 foils are a pressurised and sealed unit. Adverse temperatures can damage this product.

    Keep foil temperature under 50 degrees

    Note: Typically foils can easily exceed this temperature by:-

    Leaving in a car

    Exposing to direct sunlight

    Leaving out in high ambient temperatures with no air movement”
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2010
  7. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Moth on Foils! Nationals USA

    Congratulations to Bora for winning the Moth Nationals in Hawaii.
    http://kaneoheyachtclub.com/moths/

    vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-fkwSd79rs&feature=player_embedded
    --------------------------------
    News:

    "McDougall(windsurfingtour.com) said the company has now sold 85 of the high-flying foiling craft around the world, including 14 into Australia."
    --------------------------------
    technologica's(Bruce whatshisname) first Mothcast of 2010: http://www.mothcast.net/



    pix from site above:
     

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    Last edited: Feb 26, 2010
  8. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Moth on Foils! Kinda Funny in a Funny Sort of Way:

    from the multihulls list:

    " Yes they do have floats, built into the wings. I have watched them sail and they sail on the main hull and one float until they can get up onto the foils. Even if they can balance on just the main hull a trimaran can do the same thing and that does not make it a monohull.
    The foiler moth has 'training wheels' and that makes it a trimaran.Interesting to watch them launch. They launch in the 'capsized' mode and have to walk out to deep water to bring upright
    ."




    -------------------
    Amory Ross photo-multihulls list:
     

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  9. Cheesy
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    Cheesy Senior Member

    The R-class may well turn out to be similar to what you have outlined, although they are a 2 person boat with no minimum weight... they have pretty open rules
     
  10. petereng
    Joined: Jan 2008
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    petereng Senior Member

    Hi All,
    If you want a true box rule you should not limit the boat but limit the engine. If you settled on a resonable sail area size the rest would fall out "naturally". Or just limit the length and let the rig be unlimited. There should be no minimum weight as this is self limiting as well. The usual arguments about weight limits is cost but we build boats under all the minimum weights anyway, then add lead. The less rules the better. The R class is a good example. Plus the AC deed of gift is the original box rule. Length limit of 90ft for a single mast, 110ft for a schooner and a draft of 20ft I think? plus originally it had to be sailed to the race on its own bottom but we'll side step that one. There where only 4 rules I think? All complex rules limit innovation and development. The argument about carbon being expensive is fairly resonable but as an engineer I can tell you that very good glass laminates are nearly as strong as carbon. In a small boat like a moth the carbon cost is less then the labour cost (unless you build it yourself and your time is free) so the material cost is nearly irrelevant. You could build a moth out of glass and you nearly couldn't tell the difference to carbon. This goes for the mast as well. But you could say no carbon and this would end this argument. Glass is highly underrated in its potential. Cheers Peter S
     
  11. Munter
    Joined: Jul 2007
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    Munter Amateur

    Fair points Peter. The suggested limitations were there in an attempt to "normalise" the boats a little to remove extreme interpretations designed for very specific conditions only. Perhaps that's a not-quite-a-box rule.

    I'd suggested a minimum weight as a kind of equaliser so that slightly under-developed ideas could get a run as an experiment without being penalised for also being heavier because it hasn't had the development iterations that always result in something being lighter the second time you build it.

    Aside from the foil configuration limitation which has limited the number of conceptual foil layouts I think the moth has most of the properties of a good platform for development. I guess one test would be to see if the R class stays with twin inverted T foils or moves to a different configuration allowed under their rules.
     
  12. Doug Lord
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    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  13. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  14. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    What is that supposed to mean? Looks to me like BG was a very competitive 4th in the 1st race, and did not risk his equipment in the 2nd race (same as everyone but 4 competitors). Sounds like pretty normal preparation for a Worlds.

    It is comments like this that make people like BG dislike you.
     

  15. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Moth on Foils! Dubai Worlds

    Pictures by Thierry Martinez from Scuttlebutt: http://scuttlebutteurope.com/photos/thumbnails.php?album=1192
    -----------
    Results after day 2:

    1-Andrew McDougall(AMAC)
    2-Michael Lennon
    3-Brad Funk
    4-Scott Babbage
    5-Chris Graham
    6-Bora Gulari
    7-Arnaud Psarofaghis
    8-Adam May
    9-Dalton Bergan
     
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