Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

[Doug Lord]

1) Whilst very quick (esp for an 11footer) it is not quicker, across a range of courses and conditions, than a number of cats, nor probably the 49er and skiff classes.
2)Perhaps the most telling point is that even Doug, who is surely the most vocal supporter of the concept around, has not put his money where his mouth his and bought one (although he did build a (unsuccessful) foiling boat, so credit due).
3)If he won't buy one why should anyone else?

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1)The Moth foiler has beaten a fleet of A class sailors in 5 out of 6 races; a fleet of 49ers and a fleet of F18's "across a range ofcourses and conditions".
2) I woudn't characterize my boat as unsuccessful since it did foil three times and I learned a whole lot from it. It wasn't a very good hull design, though.
3) The Moth is too small a boat for me or should I say: I'm too big for it competitively. However, if I was going to buy one it would probably be a Prowler but I'm looking forward to seeing the Bladerider.
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Th Moth class while leading the development of bi-foil technology does not have a manufacturer producing a boat(as is) that could qualify as a Peoples Foiler. That could change over time....

 

[PI Design]

Hi Doug,

1. The Brass Monkey results don't show it to be quicker. On its day I'm sure it does compete with all the other quick boats, but sometimes it doesn't. As impressive as those results are, the fleets of boats were probably racing themselves more than a lone Moth, so those results need to be considered in context. It is a very fast boat, but probably not the out and out fastest around a course.
2. Sorry, I wasn't having a pop at your boat. I think you deserve huge credit for having a go. The point I was trying to make was that whilst you clearly love the concept of foiling, you don't do it in your spare time. You have good and valid reasons for not doing so, but so do the rest of us. You predict huge increases in foiler participation, but if you won't work round your reasons for not foiling, what makes you think the rest of us will? The main reasons for not having a foiling Moth that I can see are:
a. Boat is too small
b. Boat is too expensive
c. Boat is too fragile
d. Boat is too difficult to launch and recover
e. Boat is too demanding of my time
f. I like the (non foiler Moth) boat that I have

a. Its easy enough to make a bigger Moth, or just have bigger/thicker foils on a standard Moth. Sure, you may not win the worlds, but you'd still have a good time.
b. Well a Moth ain't no more expensive than a load of other race boats. They're too expensive to buy if you've never sailed, but not too much for the serious racer.
c. Valid argument, but not the best excuse really.
d. The big stumbling block for a people's foiler. You need a benign spot to launch from. We're not all so lucky.
e. To develop the necessar skills will certainly take time, which most of us simply don't have. I would suggest only footlose and fancy free batchelors have the time, money, dedication and physique to sail such a boat. But they are only a small portion of the demographic so this is a big barrier to a people's foiler.
f. Some people get all they need from a Laser - who can say that broad reaching one in a Force 5 isn't fun! Plus you have huge fleets, they are easy to rig, easy to sail, easy to launch, easy to fix, easy on the wallet etc.
However, I do agree that there will never be fewer foilers around than there are today. There will be a growth in foiling, but it will remain on the periphary until a-f are overcome.

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils / Big News: 2nd in Worlds to sail Prowler

In what is a fantastic development for John Ilett and Fastacraft Scott Babbage is going to get a Prowler instead of a Bladerider. Scott was second in the recent worlds and is one of the best Moth sailors around. This is great news for Fastacraft but also for the Moth class as a whole, I would think.
From Scotts blog:


"Change of tack
There's a change on the way for the next Mothing season.
I've owned 4 boats in my time, a Lazich II, a Thorpe HT, a Thorpe HT2 Foiler, and a Bladerider.
Now I'm ordering a Prowler v5 from Fastacraft.
The Bladerider experience has been fun. I wouldn't have been able to compete in the Garda Worlds, let alone finish 2nd without Rohan getting me priority treatment. I'm thankful for that.
But 2008 is another year.
And if the last year has shown anything, it's that you can't stand still in the Moth World. '06 Champion Simon showed that when his World Champ winning boat proved slow compared to the fast improving Bladerider.
I'm sure the Bladerider still has a way to develop, but the conflicting goals of commercialising a product and developing something better are going to crunch eventually. This year, next year, a couple of years down the track, it's going to happen.
Being shifted out of the official Bladerider team for '08 was a bit unexpected, but since I hadn't committed to ordering another boat, that's understandable. But that wasn't the reason for leaving.
It's going to be a challenge to catch up, let alone overtake the Bladerider.
That challenge could be fun though."

 

[Chris Ostlind]

First of all, PI, I am sorry that Doug chooses to not engage the conversation you have put forth in such a measured and considerate manner. It's a part of his personality to avoid that which he knows to be true and unexplainable.

The entire sunlit day here in North America has virtually gone by and Doug's only response is to post more press release material available at other locations. Of course, he can always go and amend this PR fizzle to include something to acknowledge you after he sees this. It's just not in him to tip the cap to the shortcomings of the bi-foil genre in search of meaningful solutions to same.

All of these same arguments have been put forth at various times in the past on this very thread, along with others which have equal potentcy. You, however,have made a comprehensive list from a sailor's point of view and it is really tough to argue around this type of coherent presentation.

Secondly, perhaps it is a good thing that Scott has gone hunting in the jungle with a new weapon to carry him along. I see real passion in the work of Ilett when it comes to doing good things within his chosen sport. His partnership, with Scott's proven skill sets, should be a real powerful step in the right direction for both of them.

If the foiling Moth class has any chance at all to get beyond the initial explosion of interest, it will be through the development work of those who push from their sense of desire beyond simply winning or cha-chinging the cash register. Whenever any product gets taken too far into the "let's make heaps of cash" envelope, it suffers from a loss of its soulfulness. Because sailing is, by its very nature, a soulful connection to the water, the wind and the bond one gains from being in their boat, that lack of soul becomes immediately apparent and the once premier start to fade because they lack the bond they once had.

Sport after sport shows this behavior to be commonplace. Time after time competitors lose the juice once they start to make the cash (Juice in this context does not refer to the use of steroids).

John and Scott.... go kick some big ***. As you say, just make sure you have a ton of fun while you do it.

 

[Foiler4dapeople]

Amen Chris,
PI,
Doug has lost all credit not taking the oppertunity to both speak to the current world no.1 and take developed boat for a sail at his own back door.
For a person who has done thousands of hours of "bi-foilmonofoil" research he has just thrown the ferfect oppertunity. I guess deep down we all knew that this was going to happen.
Yes he is having a go, but it's all on paper(forum) we have a 15ft moth sailing out at Botany Bay being a boat builder a scaled up moth would not be hard to build.
I believe that Doug has dug himself into a hole that deep that if he committed to building a boat and it failed, it would be like dropping blood into a pool of sharks. It's easier for him to try and justify numbers than video footage on You Tube.
So now we are going to experience more pages of calculation bable with added 1001 page book of excuses.
I admire his passion, all he is doing thoe is hurting the Moth class rather than helping it.
I believe Rohan is the ONLY (i may be wrong) moth sailor to beat A class, 49ners etc.... but an adverage to good mothie thats another story.
Get into the shed Doug, build a boat and sail with us. We can only hope.

When you respond can you tell us what goes through your head every day?

 

[Doug Lord]

Amen Chris,
PI,
Doug has lost all credit not taking the oppertunity to both speak to the current world no.1 and take developed boat for a sail at his own back door.
For a person who has done thousands of hours of "bi-foilmonofoil" research he has just thrown the ferfect oppertunity.

----------------
You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about....but thats ok.

 

[Foiler4dapeople]

You look in the mirror every morning and say that don't you Doug, But thats ok!

Bla bla bla, this is just circular. Reading your responses is like watching a dog chase its tail even the dog is smart enough to eventually STOP.

 

[Doug Lord]

Proof?

Proof of what? I've already designed and built one foiler and am doing another now which is described in detail on this forum. I am doing what I can to see a foiler Moth-I couldn't get to Miami and my earlier suggestions to Rohan were turned down. They'll be a Bladerider here in a short time and I'm looking forward to seeing it and sailing it. But I'm not interested in buying a Moth since ,again, I'm designing and building my own. I believe in the revolutionary technology of the foiler Moth but I'm really not interested in the class at all(as a potential owner). The developments in the Moth class and elsewhere will eventually lead to a Peoples Foiler-a boat I will definitely own.There are two threads on this forum that discuss what a Peoples Foiler is and why it will work-I won't go into it on this thread.
If its important to know how fast the Moth is compared to other boats you need a Rohan or somebody equally as good to sail it. I believe what Rohan has said he has done and that- more than anything else- shows the potential of bi-foiler technology. I don't know what happened at the Monkey but one thing is for sure: whoever sailed the Moth had serious trouble due to low skill level OR breakdowns because there is no way a functioning, well sailed foiler Moth is going to get last or second to last in that fleet. I don't know what the problem was but there was a problem.

 

[Foiler4dapeople]

Doug,
The guy sailing at the monkey is a good moth sailor and his boat is no peice of ****.
Rohan, when it comes to foil moth sailing is a freak. When he beat the A class was it Glen Ashby at the tiller.
For what these boats are, they are quick. Rohan takes it to another level.
I love seeing these boats go faster, on the weekend I made adjustments to my boat similar wand set up to the BR and it made a huge performance difference. I hope Rohan does not keep beating these boats our yard stick is hard enough for the adverage sailor ;-)
Moths are a personal choice boat, like all class of boat i'm the perfect weight for a moth and this boat appeals to me.
I never said for you to buy a moth. They are alot of money and if you can't be competitive with it don't do it. your a boat builder are you not? having these skills, you would be fullish not to give your own a go. as you said you are not interested in sailing moths and thats your choice.
All you have done Is place the same figures on these forums time and time again. you obviously don't have pictures of your boat foiling, so be it.
Start taking photo's of this latest project, move on from the figures and progress but share it so that it is not repetitive.

 

[Doug Lord]

"Figures" / "attitude"

Doug,

All you have done Is place the same figures on these forums time and time again. you obviously don't have pictures of your boat foiling, so be it.
Start taking photo's of this latest project, move on from the figures and progress but share it so that it is not repetitive.

Ok; I'll be updating my project before too long. But "all you have done is place the same figures on these forums time and time again" doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me because I've posted detailed examinations of a whole lot of DIFFERENT boats with different "figures" like:
1) my boat (X18/21T)
2) two selfrighting,canting keel,foiling sportboats,
3) one 60'selfrighting, canting keel,on-deck movable ballast foiling "Moth"(monofoiler)
4) one 14' aeroskiff
5) one 18' planing/foiling trimaran
and a few more less detailed ideas.All with different "figures". All done to illustrate, in detail, how an idea not yet done might work with the hope of sparking some discussion of same.
--All rather different in most details....
But I'll try to avoid being too repetitious except to answer questions/observations like this one.
One thing: I tend to sometimes respond to "attitude" with same; my apologies for that earlier. I've gotten better at not doing that so we'll see how it goes.
Welcome to the forum-there is a lot of interestng stuff here...

 

[foilr]

I am doing what I can to see a foiler Moth-I couldn't get to Miami and my earlier suggestions to Rohan were turned down.

It was only 200 miles from your place Doug. Why didn't you drive down for the weekend?

Please don't copy-and-paste my blog posts into this forum, for whatever purpose. Please don't use anything I write to back up your point of view, whatever it is.

 

[PI Design]

So anyway, this raises an interesting question. Is the BladeRider going to develop to keep up with the Prowler, or is it staying one-design? I don't see how it can do both.

 

[Foiler4dapeople]

It was only 200 miles from your place Doug. Why didn't you drive down for the weekend?

Point taken Foilr,
Sorry Doug, I didn't realise you were that far away.

No need to apologise for the "attitude" we are both passionate about this subject but coming in from two different directions.

"attitude" can be good. It spices up the forum

Not new to this forum. new computer different address and forgot pass word.

Regards,
Grant

 

[Doug Lord]

Moth on Foils "friends"?

Just checked Rohans site and noticed that the address to Scott Babbage's blog has been removed from under Rohan's list of "Sailing Friends".
It would appear that there is more than meets the eye to the Babbage/Fastacraft/ Veal situation.
Scott, would you post your blog address here so we can all keep track? Thanks.....

 

[water addict]

sorry to stir the pot.
A sincere question.
What about foil boats has changed to likely make them any better/ more useable than before?
Foil boats have been around for multiple decades in many forms of power and sail. They have never gained widespread use. What is the big kicker that will suddenly change the tide if ever? Honestly I only see very minor incremental improvements.
Don't get me wrong, I think foils are pretty neat. But too complex for most to handle.