Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Apr 11, 2006.

  1. usa2
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    usa2 Senior Member

    I dont see why anyone considers hydrofoils on dinghies revolutionary. I14's have had foils on them for quite a while, and people knew they could make the boats "fly", its just illegal to do so.
    Putting them on keelboats makes no sense, and is highly unlikely to work. In dinghys i believe the idea has merit, as it has been proven to work. But on a keelboat, for the foils to work they would have to be capable of massive loadings, and even today we are seeing vertical foils (rudders, daggerboards) made of carbon fibre that are being broken from heavy seas. It wont happen.
     
  2. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Foiling

    While this topic is incredibly fascinating because of the dramatic speed increases posted by Moth foilers over the last couple of years another part of the story is equally important: low speed take off. Moths are continually improving in low speed takeoff which is now below 7.5-8knots in some cases and is a major area of interest for many who are interested in foiling. I've worked on a project with an internationally known windsurfer whose interest in applying foils to boards is low speed foiling. Eric Sponberg and my aeroSKIFF14 is designed especially for light wind takeoff.
    I believe part of Rohans blog described foiling at 14 knots in 7 knots of wind which is not really high speed sailing but high fun sailing-the kind of upwind , downwind and round a course foiling experience that no one sailing a Rave , Trifoiler or any other multifoiler has ever experienced.
    So while the publicity is focused on the remarkable increase in top end speed by the foiler Moth there has been a similar decrease in the wind in which a Moth can foil proving not only the efficiency of the technology but opening the experience to an ever wider set of conditions. People don't have to be speed freaks to enjoy or be involved in monofoiling-they can do it for the pure joy of flying in light to moderate conditions.
    And the Moth guys have proved over and over how much fun it is to race a foiler Moth either against other Moths or simply being out for a daysail picking off much larger catamarans just for the hell of it.The efficiency and performance of the foiler Moth is nearly unmatched in any sailboat under 20'...
    To try to discredit John Ilett's comments because he builds the most refined foiler Moths is to miss the fact that he is the major force behind bringing the Moth to the state of the art sailing machine it is now-starting from scratch.John was there at the begining and pioneered race winning World Championship monofoiling and is ,perhaps, the most authoritative voice in any discussion of the technology behind this new kind of sailing.
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    06_01388b-MothMelbourne-01.jpg
    Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/photos/06_01388b-MothMelbourne-01.jpg Changed:9:54 PM on Monday, March 27, 2006
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    Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/photos/2006_saunasail/PICT0094.jpg Changed:2:22 AM on Monday, June 12, 2006
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2006
  3. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Huh?

    Just for the continuity of the thing, I just now finished re-reading all the posts in the thread and I can't find a single instance where someone attempted to discredit Ilett's commentary.

    There are situations where someone has disagreed with his positions, but no discrediting. There is a difference.

    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that and, hopefully, move on from there. John does have many valid points, I get the feeling that he's a pretty good guy and I deeply respect his work in the field. He also chooses to ignore a bunch of equally valid points that are being made by others on this thread and that does not advance the discussion.

    Like I said to John in an earlier posting. If you want this foiling thing to be more than a novelty scenario in the greater world of sailing, then someone needs to step-up, as it were, and address the long list of issues frankly and with good intent so that the shortcomings (and every design idiom has them) can be hashed-out with a direct openness.

    The person who does that should be a respected figure in the field, such as John, and they should be ready to discuss all the potential topics with a focused degree of civility. This doesn't have to be an us against them kind of enterprise. There is a certain degree of interest on these pages for boats of this type, but the process has been, shall we say, marketed rather heavily with little willingness to discuss the possible hangups.

    From my experience in new product introductions and marketing, the only folks who can keep things cloudy while they push the hype button are the guys who have tons of money and the arrogance to go with it. Since none of the players in the foiling moth world seem to be really flush with money, the proponents should be looking to develop a different marketing strategy that appeals to the grass roots potential of the sport. Without question, that means absolute open discussions of the enterprise including all the warts.

    Or you'll likely lose the audience before you get out of the blocks.
     
  4. frosh
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    frosh Senior Member

    John, I give you full credit for your pioneering work and achievements in developing to its current potential the whole bifoiler concept.
    Doug, you are the epitome of a wannabee! If only you were lighter, if only you were younger, if only you had been around sailing Moths when foilers were first being tested, if only you had thought of it first, etc etc.
    Answer this question straight. Is your ultimate aim to produce the aeroSKIFF on foils as a marketing and profit exercise?
    Is this the main reason that you hype up the story that soon a boat will be designed that is accessible to the sailing masses that will allow flying in moderate conditions and will be relatively easy to sail, and rig, unrig, and maintain and also affordable.
    There is nothing wrong with marketing something that people want to buy and the originator making profits.
    Its just that in this forum you need to stop wearing your salesman's hat, and accept a few home truths, and try to be more honest in your appraisals of certain concepts and what are truly radical craft.
    Nothing wrong with radical either, it has a time and place but it is definitely not for the majority, and I believe it is dishonest to say that it is. The Hobie Trifoiler is the closest we have yet come to a sailboat on foils for the masses.
    It is also very fast, but people have voted with their wallets, and essentially have shunned it. WAKE UP! HIGH SPEED IS NOT GENERALLY WHAT PEOPLE ARE PREPARED TO PAY FOR.
    Chris Ostlind's analogy to motor cycles is a good one. It costs a good deal more to buy a slow Harley Davidson than a "rocketship" Yamaha R1. Yet what do people generally buy?
    I go back to an example I made some time ago. The Olympic sailing classes apart from 49er and Tornado are almost painfully slow. This indicates that other criteria are extremely important.
    The one's that I can think of immediately, are User friendly, Well organised and friendly group to share sailing experiences with, (meaning a fleet to compete against, not too far from home).
    Not too expensive for it's size. Doesn't tend to break. Does not become obsolete quickly.
    The foiler Moth does even though spectacular in its performance does not score well on my important criteria listed above.
    In many respects the old Aussie scow Moth was a greater success by far than the current foiler. At least there were sizable fleets out every weekend and people really enjoyed the sailing scene a lot more. Moths mainly come out for special events only nowadays. Is this because they are such a pain to set up, or to minimise the number of breakages?
    Just another example where design evolution has actually take the sport backwards. :mad:
     
  5. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Wanabe? You Betcha!

    Frosh, you're right I am a wanabe-I want to foil because I've had the experience of sailing a Rave and my own(designed and built) 16 monofoiler and I know the incredble potential of this type vs. multifoilers and "normal" boats. I study, research / read all I can on the subject as well as spending more and more time designing, building and sailing different types of foilers. Have you ever sailed any type of foiler? Have you ever designed and built one?
    While this thread is about the top end speed of the foiler Moth I pointed out in my previous post the tremendous advances the boat has made
    in low speed takeoff. The range of usable sailing conditions for the foiler Moth is far greater than any previous foiler including the Hobie trifoiler and Rave. And it's upwind ability is without peer in previous foiler incarnations.
    Reliability, pitchpole, ease of sailing, round the course performance, comparisions with other boats under 20' ,cost,trash in the water and the effect on foilers, production, history, low speed performance, high speed performance, boat weight, crew weight, other monofoilers, new monofoilers, old monofoilers have all been
    addressed at various times in this forum under
    these threads and others: "Peoples Foiler: aeroSKIFF and M4", "Peoples Olympic Foiler", "Foiler 1 GP", "Foiler Design".
    When reliabilty is questioned using minor failures occuring with older boats that are involved in trying to push the speed envelope in 20- 30 knots wind rather than using the example of the dozens of major Moth Championships held over the last few years with few if any failures
    the discussion seems a bit unbalanced.
    I can't think of an issue relating to the foiler Moth or monofoilers in general that hasn't been addressed here-many times directly by John.
    Back to this thread: this is a celebration of the top end speeds recorded by Moth guys in an internal Moth class "contest" that has shown both top end and average speeds increase dramatically over the last two years. But that is only one-very interesting-segment of the foiler Moth experience.Equally as important are the advances made by John and others in reducing the takeoff windspeed of the boat and increasing the multiple of windspeed to boatspeed-like 14 knots boat speed in 7 knots of wind. And the growing list of boats beaten around a course by the foiler Moth in conditions suitable to them both like the 49'er, I14, F18 and A class catamaran and others.
    And the foiler Moth is just the begining.....
    There is much more to this picture than just high top end speed....(but the speed sure is cool)
     
  6. Baronvonrort
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Baronvonrort Junior Member

    Doug
    You conveniently fail to mention how the foiling moth was beaten by an OK and other slower dinghy's at skandia week,Rohan has the results on his website.The moth was not very impressive at the brass monkey regatta last year either,thats alright we can all see through your wannabe BS.I guess there are no foiling moths in florida so you might not have seen one in real life.

    I can say that if that is you sailing your seahugging excuse for a foiler that you call the aeroskiff you are too fat and unfit to ever hope to foil in a Moth.
    Take a look at the weight and physical conditioning of the top moth sailors and they are all much smaller than you.

    The moth is one of the few remaining sailing classes that does not have a minimum weight restriction and i would suggest with current materials they cant really make it much lighter.I bet Rohan would know the weight of every component on his moth and is still trying to save weight.

    The old saying if it doesnt break it is too heavy certainly applies to the moth and i am sure Rohan and the other moth sailors spend some time working on their boats to keep them in perfect working order unlike the laser sailors who put their boat away for next time and do not have to maintain it constantly.

    The Moth is not a boat for inexperienced sailors and it is not easy or user friendly anymore.

    I have always liked the Moth class since the time i first had a close look at the scows and have watched the development over the years to the foilers currently racing.

    Anyone can spruik off about speed claims and i think if you are going to post the speed achieved then you should also post windspeed and angle to true wind.
    You make claims about upwind performance yet have never posted anything about upwind tacking angles and windspeed vs boatspeed that the moths achieve..is it 80, 90 deg,100deg?

    I think the biggest seller for off the beach sailcraft in the last 25 years has come from windsurfing.Cheap,simple, reliable easy to rig and store/transport and WTF they hold the world speed record!

    Whats the top speed of a windsurfer?
    How many million windsurfers have been sold?
     
  7. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Forget This

    Hey guys,

    So, somebody needs to make this comment in support of the previous observations by Frosh. People's Boating, to borrow an overused phrase from one of our esteemed members, is not in residence in the foiling products we've been witness to on these pages. There are many reasons, so there's no need to get into that at this point.

    When Mr. Lord first pushed-out his chosen designator of, People's Foiler, I had this expectant desire to see something that was at once affordable, simple to use and available and sailable for kids in the 10 to 16 year old range as well as small to average adults. I was going on the oft accepted definition of the term "People's" as a fitting descriptor of a craft that was suitable for the masses.

    When something else entirely emerged, which would clearly not be suitable for smallish, as well as young boaters, I was hugely dissapointed in the obnoxious hype surrounding the introduction. Now, perhaps that was my fault being such an enthusiast for boating and being heavily invested in the reality that without a series of good, new boats for energetic kids, there will be little to shout about with regards to our boating future.

    Frosh observed here many times that fleets of small boats are disintegrating in some areas of the world where they once were quite popular. So, instead of creating a wonderful new collection of boats for The People, we got presented with a tricked-out, complex, hard to drive techno boat that will only be attractive to a slender market share. Certainly, there's a place for them, but they're hardly a "People's Boat" from where I sit.

    When you lose the kids from the sport, the end is near in just a few years. You can make all the fancy foilers, carbon rocketships, adjustable swinging keels and trick rigs you want. There won't be enough customers out there to buy them anyway.

    So, imagine my surprise when along comes a posted photo at Sailing Anarchy on Friday that showed an enticing new boat from of all people, BIC, aimed directly at the sports minded kids who want to get out on the water and mix it up with their buddies.

    http://www.openbic.com/index.wrd?opbid=cecba05eabfdb2b6b3311af6f967713d

    At 2500 Euros out the door, it's going to be real tough for anything with foil assist to get even close to what this kind of boat can mean for the "People" of our sport. Geez, what's a set of foils alone go for, USD$1000 or so?

    Read 'em and weap guys. These are the hotshoes of the future. The People's Sailors, if you will, and they're going to be looking for boats to drive that make sense, can be purchased within their income potential, can be driven onto the beach where they will be hanging out with their friends and won't cost them an arm and a leg to repair if they forget to retract the foils before they get into shallow water.

    Any of you with young, boating kids like this know exactly what I mean by that last sentence. That's why my kid's boats are nearly indestructible and/or have centerboards and flip-up rudders.

    Go look at the slide show and see what I mean by fun.
    http://www.openbic.com/images/?opbid=cecba05eabfdb2b6b3311af6f967713d

    Chris Ostlind
    Lunada Design
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Higher, Faster= "Buzz"

    Now, that's a pretty little boat but I'm afraid the price range is the best thing about it-but definitely not the bang for the buck. It's 9' long and weighs 143 pounds-thats more than a Laser! With about half the sail area! Do you really think that will capture the interest of today's young sailor wannabe's? A boat with the same weight as a Laser will be hard for the target market to handle on the beach ,wouldn't you think? For around the same price a kid can get into windsurfing where not only will he/she learn the basic forces acting on a sailboat by feeling them he/she will get to go really fast in winds over about 10-12 knots. Not only that but included in the price would be top notch instruction and maybe a summer camp. I think a kid would do well to be able to learn on a windsurfer and then graduate to a modern foiler Moth; see what Andrew McDougall(long time Moth builder, sailer and sailmaker) says about who can sail his new Bladerider:
    International Foiler Moth - Bladerider
    Address:http://www.kasail.com/sailing/bladerider.html Changed:11:41 PM on Monday, June 5, 2006
    Note that the hull weight of a Bladerider (or Prowler) is UNDER 22 pounds(allup: around 66lb.s-less than half of the Bic) and that the Moth is
    primarily a light persons boat. Easy to move around on the beach, retractable foils(according to McDougall) and I wouldn't be surprised to see removable buoyancy pods introduced as time goes by.
    While the windsurfer can really move as
    the wind picks up NOTHING on the planet can do what a Moth can in light air: McDougall says that with the larger 9m² sail the Bladerider will take off in 5 knots of wind and do 14 knots boatspeed!!(see first question under "General Enquiries":
    KA Sail Australia - Bladerider FAQ's
    Address:http://www.kasail.com/sailing/faqs.html Changed:9:53 PM on Monday, June 5, 2006 )
    Thats waaaay before a board will plane or a cat fly a hull-and that, my friend, will definitely capture the interest of the sailing youngsters I'm familiar with.
    I'm afraid Bic is a little late with their offering; even though the price is outstanding I just don't think it will cut it in this day and age...
     
  9. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
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    RHough Retro Dude

    Since there are 100's of learn to sail programs that use the Opti and are part of youth sail racing development programs and NO such programs that use windsurfers there are 100's of Opti sailors that can use the rig and foils they already have with a One Bic hull. Then add the One Bic rig and foils later.

    Opti sailors know how to sail, windsurfers know what? How steep is the learning curve from Opti to Moth vs Windsurfer to moth? On one hand you have a sailor that knows about sail and hull trim and is familiar with sail trim controls on the other you have a whatever that that has never used a sheet or tiller. My money is on the Opti sailor.

    In fact, I'll wager that more top sailors started in Opti's than windsurfers in any class you care to name. The fact is that kids that learn to sail and race Opti's do darn well, I can't think of any good sailors that started with windsurfers then went on to be successful in dinghies or other boats. The skills need to windsurf have next to no relevance to sailing real boats.

    The fact is that high performance planing dinghies are not the boat of choice for a majority of sailors, much less a high maintenance foiling contraption.

    The One Bic has a larger target market than any foiler will ever have.
     
  10. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Windsurfer to Moth?

    Well, Mr. Hough, I do believe you're dead wrong. See this:
    05/04/06 2006 USA Junior Olympic Festival Schedule
    Address:http://www.ussailing.org/pressreleases/2006/jocalendar.htm Changed:10:46 AM on Thursday, May 4, 2006
    The Calema Windsurfing and Sailing school mentioned in this schedule is near my home and I know the owner well. He feels that a high performance foiler would fit in perfectly with his youth sailing program! I do too....
     
  11. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Argument losing steam

    Lord writes: "Now, that's a pretty little boat but I'm afraid the price range is the best thing about it-but definitely not the bang for the buck. It's 9' long and weighs 143 pounds-thats more than a Laser! With about half the sail area! Do you really think that will capture the interest of today's young sailor wannabe's?"

    The BIC is also virtually maintenance free, waaay more affordable and nearly bullet-proof for entry level, People's Sailors. No handy gimmicks to learn such as trim tabs, wands, skiding seat setups, etc, just flat-out fun on the water with a huge sigh of cash drain relief from the parents as their kid gets out on the water with his or her buddies. The boat can even be pulled behind a bike with a simple beach dolly. Oh, and did I say, it can be packed-up and ready to go in less than five minutes?

    The foiling concept is done-for save for the few techno-dudes who really have the twinge. Look again at who is riding rice rocket motorcyles and what percentage of sales the manufacturers enjoy from that design idiom when compared to the overall sales of cruising machines. That's your market indicator.

    There will always be techno-dudes, Doug. They'll happily buy anything they think will get them the buzz fix they seek. Unfortunately, they don't represent the mainstream of sailing for those who are looking to make a smart living from the process.

    Plastic boats, like the BIC, are the way things are going for the time being as the price point delivers that "Bang for the Buck" that you like to include in your argument. The kayak market has been flooded with good rotomolded boats for years and they have progressively shrunk the composite market as a result. Much of the same thing has been happening in the beach cat market as well.

    That reality and the additional fact that rotomolded boats tend to be slighty heavier than their composite counterparts will likely keep them out of the running for a viable foiler, such as those you espouse. This means that foiling craft will likely have to be sold at much higher levels of cost due to material realities. One could build foiler hulls from thermoformed plastic skins if the engineering could be done to satisfy the loadings issues, but that will require a ton of R&D to get the process right, along with the right plastic for the job.

    That looks to be the only way to compete at the price point of more acceepted recreational boats. In the end, high price and development time are going to kill the product because they probably can't be built at simple levels of manufacturing routines.

    I won't even begin to get into the on-going need to produce the next greatest cheeseburger foiler which will succeed in eating all the previous potential profits in R&D costs. (that's a tip of the cap for Ilett's next boat)
     
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  12. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    Would that be this site? :)

    There are 24 events on the link that you posted. TWO (2) of the 24 have windsurfers ... 8%

    Of those same 24 events EIGHTEEN (18) include Opti's ... 75%

    and I'M dead wrong? LMAO!

    Simple math Mr. Lord ... assume 100 sailors at each event. Take the top sailor from each. Any bets that the 18 Opti sailors will foil rings around the 2 windsurfers?

    Yep ... I must be wrong. The one guy in Florida that agrees with you and whose website is down as I type this are more in tune than the 22 clubs that don't include windsurfers ... yeah right.

    When you post rebuttal links, it's best to see that they support your position ... :p
     
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  13. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Dead Wrong-again...

    What you said that was definitely dead wrong and what the site I posted backs up is:
    " Since there are 100's of learn to sail programs that use the Opti and are part of youth sail racing development programs and NO such programs that use windsurfers...".
    I think Opti programs have been great-I just think that a windsurfer program would be an excellent forerunner to high performance monofoiling.
     
  14. RHough
    Joined: Nov 2005
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    RHough Retro Dude

    A JO windsurfer regatta is not the same thing as being part of a national youth sailing development program. 29er's are sailed in JO regatta's too, but they are not used as sail trainers either.

    Show me a National Youth Sail Development program that is based on windsurfers that leads to racing other boats and I'll eat my words. Not one school in Florida, a National program.

    Do you really think that learning to windsurf would be a better foundation to learn to sail a high performance dinghy than the racing and seamanship skills learned in an Opti program?

    Why don't you ask how many of the foiling Moth skippers started on windsurfers and how many started in an Opti, Topper, or El Toro?

    Does it strike you as odd that NONE of the events in the JO program have both windsurfers and real boats? Could it be that all the folk that see that windsurfers and sailboats don't fit in the same regatta are dead wrong too?

    Back to the One Bic vs a boat that doesn't exist yet ...

    With over 500,000 Opti's in the world, there looks to be a market for a transition boat like the One Bic. Kids can get a taste of planing dinghy performance for much less than the cost of a Byte or Laser.

    Bic must be dead wrong too ... hmmm ...

    Bic Pens
    Bic Lighters
    Bic Windsurfers

    Pretty bad track track record ...
     

  15. frosh
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    frosh Senior Member

    The truth comes out at last!

    Doug, you are the author of your own demise on this thread, and deservedly so. I think that the arguments re: involving the kids when they big enough to move out of Optis and into small affordable planing boats, is the one that is absolutely the most important to ensure that our sport has a future.
    The introduction of the BIC Open, and at the price is very timely as we are losing the juniors by the hundreds at around the age they are learning to drive for a myriad of reasons.
    Any new offering that can involve teenagers in something that will keep them excited to be in the sport and will grow with them as well is potentially huge!
    Windsurfing which I happen to participate in and have followed closely for around 25 years, is definitely in decline. This has nothing to do with the fun or value for money it provides, but because the majority of participants never had a real sailing background, it was easy to move across to kite-surfing with its much larger jumps and the modern image kites enjoy.
    I don't believe that windsurfing will recover to the heady days of the 80's, and even if it did, does not provide a basis for any form of dinghy sailing.
    Doug, to say that kids should be taught the sailing basics on a windsurfer and then move across to Moth foilers defies all the observable facts so far, and the logic of sensible posters on this forum that unfortunately does not include you.
    Do you subscribe perhaps to the view that you are the only sane person you know?
    Perhaps the rest of us are either crazy, or we have a dishonest hidden agenda, so it suits us to try and deliberately mislead the newbie sailors reading this forum? :confused:
     
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