Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Apr 11, 2006.

  1. foilr
    Joined: Mar 2006
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    foilr Yes I've sailed one.

  2. foilr
    Joined: Mar 2006
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    Location: Sydney, Australia

    foilr Yes I've sailed one.

    On GPS readings

    From the UK Moth web site

    These page is also interesting... and
  3. usa2
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    usa2 Senior Member

    I have heard and seen F18's achieve a good 25-30 knots, and i would assume an A-class is faster, being lighter and more powered up. Apparently, an F-16 cat is also capable of 25 knots, and being launched off of the beach. Which brings us to the question- If a catamaran is easier to sail, same price (or cheaper) than a foiler, and the consumer is looking for speed, why bother with the foiler?
  4. gggGuest
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    gggGuest ...

    A question that is likely only to be asked by someone who has never seen one. Whilst I think there is almost zero chance of a Moth foilers or a moth foiler derived boat becoming a mass market sales item, the two are not remotely comparible.
  5. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Moth on Foils-F18's

    2, on the C class cat thread on SA I believe it is Steve Clark that mentions the top speed of those boats at around 24 knots.
    This is from Rohans site regarding the recent "Sauna Sail" regatta posted on Monday 12 June 2006:
    "Each race of our division started 5 minutes behind the F18's, but by the end of my three laps,I had nearly caught and passed most of them. The highlight was passing them one at a time(to windward and leeward) on a reach with their kites up! Only a few of the top guys on a Tornado and Hobie Tigers stayed ahead but they weren't anymore than 2-3 minutes ahead.[ REMEMBER VEAL STARTED 5 MINUTES BEHIND!!!]
    Headline: " 11' Monohull beats whole fleet of 18 and 20' high tech catamarans around a course numerous times!" Hmmm, sounds pretty damn impressive.....I know it's hard for some people to accept the reality of the situation but this boat represents nothing less than a revolution in sailing.
    The Moth is 12-13 grand in US dollars including shipping(according to KA); about the same for the Prowler that Rohan sails built by Fastacaft.
    But ,if you wanted to you could build and equip your own for around $7,000 including pro foils and rig......
  6. Stephen Ditmore
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    Stephen Ditmore Senior Member

    That may be (responding to gggGuest), but it doesn't answer the question, and usa2's question isn't ridiculous. The Moth goes on top of the car... that's a plus, especially for a city dweller. I have an older catamaran that I haven't used in a while. I could have put time into fixing it up, but I decided I wanted to build a Moth instead. Why? Dunno. It just calls to me (and is something of a prototype for a larger boat I may wish to design in the future). I want my own mini custom raceboat, of my own design. And I want it to appeal to me aesthetically, as well as sail fast.

    But mine won't have foils, so I really haven't answered the question, either.
  7. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Hitting the Nail on the Head

    gggGuest wrote: "Whilst I think there is almost zero chance of a Moth foilers or a moth foiler derived boat becoming a mass market sales item, the two (fast beach cats compared to Moth derived anything from author of this post) are not remotely comparible." (sic)

    And in that nicely penned comment, we truly do see the folly of all these supposedly valuable incidents in which a World Champ on his foiling Moth sails past a nicely driven beach cat.

    The whole, "my unit is bigger than yours" thing, is ridiculous in value and ultimately foolish to compare for all the reasons so stated earlier on in this thread. Speed is but one small item in the determination of the value of a particular boat. Since the vast majority of sailors in this world do not race, (nor will they ever) the component issue of which boat is the fastest becomes even more remote in its use in the real world.

    Soon enough, there'll be another flavor of the month for the foamers to mount a drooling session. I believe that you see the fixings on the way to the kitchen right now with the boys about to glue-on a foil package to an Aussie 18. Since there's such a huge market for 18's on this planet, (no matter the configuration) it seems that the messiah foiler proponent paradigm is, in fact, moving in the wrong direction.

    If the concept works at all, then the only way to get it to the masses in any kind of People’s hype, is to make the paradigm go in the other direction, towards the simplest possible boat that can meet the criteria of a rental product on a hotel beach. I don't see that happening in this lifetime. Not enough sex in that particular stew.

    Anyone can make a fast anything with enough money and engineering being thrown at it. "World's Fastest Refrigerator sets new land speed record at Bonneville" reads the headline after three, mechanical engineering degreed brothers inherit USD$10 million from dead Grandfather's estate. They established several new time trial records, wiping out previous marks set just the year before by a team from the Ferrari factory with Michael Schumacher at the wheel.

    If it's about irrelevant and dumb comparisons, this thread takes the cake and we all know who the head baker is. Don't we, Chef Lord?
  8. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Moth on Foils

    Stephen, I don't know why but I had the feeling that you were leaning toward foils. Just out of curiosity why won't you use them?
    2, it's not just high top end speed that is attractive in a foiler: the Moth is also capable of astonishing speeds in relatively LOW wind speed. KA claims their new Bladerider will do 14 in a 5 knot breeze with the big main; John Ilett did something like 19 knots in a 10-12 knot breeze over a year ago. Rohan can take off in 7 or 8 knots of wind(or maybe even lower now) and exceed double the windspeed. Earlier take off is one of the performance areas being aggressively refined in foiler Moth development.
  9. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Doug, you say that the Lugg/Smith 14 proves a heavy boat can fly upwind. The quote you put on the Moth forum says specifically that it didn't go upwind EFFECTIVELY on foils...."The first compromise was to reduce the foil size SO THAT THE HULL DID NOT LEAVE THE WATER AT UPWIND SPEEDS. Early experiments with larger foils had the bot foilborne upwind with excellent speed but greatly reduced pointing ability."

    I'm not up to speed with Andy Loukes' foiler but his initial posts said it only flew under spinnaker.

    When the Lugg boat had to be modified so it DIDN'T foil upwind to be remotely competitive (26th out of 36 at the nats or something) surely your claim that the 14 "sailed well upwind in foils" remains unproven.

    Doug, I looked up the Go for the Gold regatta when Rohan raced the 49ers. It was a very impressive performance; very competitive with the 49ers. However, it was also held in foiling conditions and while the foiler Moth is an incredible machine in those conditions, I think you'll find the races Rohan used to research the yardstick were set at BRYC in foiling conditions. When the Moth can't foil, it's about 65% of the speed of the 49er or something. I think you'll find the way the yardstick was set doesn't reflect that.

    Similar points arise from Sauna Sail.Yes the foiler went like a bat out of hell when it foiled (although after looking at the race times it's hard to see how the Moth was going faster than the top F18s) but on the flipside, none of the foilers finished any of the first 3 races. When the foilers only finish in the conditions they like, it makes it very hard to assess how fast they are all-round and it undermines any claim that they are currently the best solution for all-round sailing speed.

    What's really frustrating is that Rohan has been racing against some of the world's best (ie top 5/10 inthe world) in F18s, 49ers and Int 14s and doing extremely well against them when foiling, yet because the foilers won't finish in the light stuff we don't know who they really compare, from 0-50 knots or whatever.

    The information on your other link has some contradictions that surely mean it should be treated with caution. It claims...

    "* Boat speed is always faster than any wind speed from 7 to 25 knots."

    " Average upwind speed 11-14 knots (peaks up to 17 knots)
    Average downwind speed 12-22 knots (peaks up to 24 knots)"

    Well, I can't quite work out how a boat can be ALWAYS faster than the wind speed from 7 to 25 knots, yet go upwind at a peak speed of 17 knots and downwind at a peak of 24 knots.

    That means if it's 24 knots wind you're peaking at 17 knots according tot he info......I'm not that strong on maths but last time I looked, 17 was less than 24. That means the boat is SLOWER than the windspeed. Ergo we can't trust all the claims you want us to trust because they are not logical.

    What happens in an 18 knot gust if the Moth goes faster than the windspeed under 25 knots, but has a peak speed of 17 knots upwind?

    What is left behind? Do they shimmer as they disappear, or is there an explosion? Doesn't it contradict various physical laws? Does part of the boat keep going faster than the wind and the rest stay behind at 17 knots? Doesn't that mean the Moth is now over 11' long and therefore no longer a Moth under the class rules? Is that why many amateur-built foils break? Is this the foiler's version of the event horizon or the sound barrier? Wha' happen?

    Maybe we should all stay well away from foiler Moths. We don't want to be around the shrapnel when the laws of maths and physics go berko, and 24 knots becomes less than 17 knots. If I'd written that in maths tests at school I'd have failed. Come to think of it, I did.....

    Or is it perhaps marketing and enthusiasm running away (understandably) and therefore, Doug, we shouldn't just sit back and accept it all without query?
    Given the direct contradiction in these claims how can other claims of foiler performance be ALWAYS taken unquestionably on face value as you seem to want us to do?

    These are astonishing performers, beautifully worked out. It would be great to see them going in all conditions, no excuses.

    I bet Foiler (if he ius who he seems to be) will be fully worked for the BM this year, last year when new on the boat he was really, really quick at times. It was interesting, when struggling you'd close up on him and then zip! onto foils and vanishing, until (in those very nasty conditions) he'd drop again. Hopefully this year we'll get some more moderate conditions and we can enjoy the site of the Moth screaming along more.

    Foiler, if the BM course is the same as last year boards won't be able to race, or race effectively. At the recent SIRS regattas the permission to cross the ferry lane hasn't been available. If it was like last year the FW boards would struggle I think; they basically wouldn't have got around R3 and R4 (when a longboard would have flown!). As far as I can see from sailng against FW boards and talking to Rohan,. the FW gear is still quicker downwind in planing conditions but when it's off the plane it's slower than a foiling Moth off the foils. Have you sailed against FW boards?

    USA2 an A Class is 105kg too light to fit into the F18 class, apart from numerous other problems.

    I'm not saying foilers are not amazing because they are; merely looking for demonstrable facts for some of the claims.
  10. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    As are we all. :)
  11. foilr
    Joined: Mar 2006
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    foilr Yes I've sailed one.

    CT, I wont be at the BM this year. I sold the boat a month or so ago. Would've been nice though.

    I haven't raced a FW, only brief bursts against the RSXs at SIRS. Nothing conclusive to draw from that.
  12. frosh
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    frosh Senior Member

    If it don't have foils it must stink!

    My heart warmed to see that one of Mr Lords very few remaining disciples, Stephen D has now owned up to the fact that he prefers his new Moth to be a lowrider.
    Bravo! for not being bullied.
    Even more satisfying was the "Foil king's" reaction to this heart wrenching news.

    "Stephen, I don't know why but I had the feeling that you were leaning toward foils. Just out of curiosity why won't you use them?"

    Stephen prefers the foil less style for going fast and aesthetic reasons.
    Maybe it is also the crap you have to go through every time you launch and retrieve the boat, and the potential damage to body and boat on foils.

    I also find it incomprehensible that Dougie doesn't sail some sort of foiler himself. After all with his connections,---. Rohan might be able to get one of his sponsors to put up the money for an enlarged version of his own boat.
    By Dougie's own admission, he is wa-a-ay to heavy for a regulation Moth.
    In return for the free boat Dougie could actually write a daily diary in this forum about real experiences that he had on his "Giant Moth", and whether he passed any other sailboats that were stupid enough to ask him for a drag race.

    At least he he would gain a little credibility this way, and wouldnt be living a surrogate existence as he must do now, which is really a sad thing. :D
  13. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Moth on Foils

    CT, as to David Luggs boat: according to Lugg and to Alan Smith who worked with him on the boat the boat sailed well upwind but as you pointed out didn't point exceptionally well. The Moth's didn't point spectacularly on foils as they do now until Rohan developed the technique of heeling to weather upwind. Had the 14 class legalized full flying foils I'm sure you would have seen similar dramatic improvements in that class as has happened in the Moth class.Lugg's solution to the foiling design problem was to optimize his foils for offwind work whch meant he used a very small foil that was highly loaded. Others would most certainly have migrated to an upwind foiling solution as happened in the Moth class. You conveniently ignore the evidence of the very large Monitor monofoiler that even tacked on foils. You also ignore the fact that Sean Langman and the Out 95 guys and others believe that much larger foilers are possible including ballasted keelboats on foils. You ignore or are not familiar with the articles writen in Seahorse by Ian Ward(Moth foiler pioneer) suggesting a series of foiler classes-he obviously believes that larger two and three person foilers are possible.
    I don't think you can take anyone's claims 100% but in the case of the Moth there is growing evidence that what Rohan says is 99.9% true and accurate( on the Aussie A cat site before it crashed there were numerous comments by A class guys about being passed by a Moth-there is at least one such comment still there last I looked); what benefit would it be to him to exagerate or make up figures? If you have a question about what Rohan published on Foiler 1 GP why don't you ask him directly instead of publically disparaging his veracity or math ability?
    Frosh, you should quit pretending that you know anything about me or what I sail-you simply don't have a clue! Stephen Ditmore is a great guy and you probably shouldn't speak for him-he does very well speaking for himself! You mentioned " the crap you have to go thru to rig a foiler"-what crap? On my 16 the foils retract and the boat is trailered like any normal dinghy. It takes NO MORE time to rig than any other 16 footer. Some Moths require that the foils be inserted from the bottom while you wade out far enough to do that-that sounds like a ***** to me -I'll give you that. But the new Bladerider from KA has retractable foils-as does the M4. So since you've never sailed a foiler and have no clue what is going on and what is possible in foiler design I'd quit pontificating about stuff you obviousy know nothing about.
    These are early days in bi-foil monofoiler design; the Moth has set the performance standard- but other boats are being developed that will be much easier to sail and rig-it's just a matter of time before the Peoples Foiler emerges that puts it all together. In the meantime, the extraordinary exploits and achievements of the foiler Moth will continue to dazzle sailors (and non sailors) everywhere and baffle it's detractors -detractors who increasingly will be left in the wake of a true revolution in sailing.
  14. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Foilistas Por Vida!!!

    Careful, guys. Doug is flashing his gang signs again.

    Next thing you know, there'll be a drive-by foiling complete with non-spec manufactured seconds being thrown on your lawns as a sign of disrespect.

    Doug; You are one bad Vato.

    La Vida Foilista Loca

  15. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Oh c'mon Doug, I'm not disparaging Rohan's ability at maths, it's pretty damn obvious I'm just joking. For crying out loud, try googling "sense of humour".

    Of course he knows the maths, but don't you see that in claiming a boat always exceeds windspeeds under 25 knots but sails at a max upwind of 17 knots is sort of funny? We've all made similar slips and I'm sure as hell you for example have pointed it out when people like me have made similar errors.

    As I quite clearly pointed out I was just saying that it seems that there may have been an understandable burst of enthusiasm that may have lead to some minute errors which mean nothing but are just a bit funny.

    I'll give you a time someone asks whether foilers explode at 17 knots, whether there is a cloud of shrapnel around, whether they just disappear, it is because they are making a J.O.K.E. A bad one, a very lame one, but still a joke. Ask your mum about them.

    As far as why I don't ask Rohan himself if I doubt his veracity - 1, I have never said that he is lying therefore his veracity is not in issue. 2- you attack the veracity and motives and knowledge of many people publically without directing the questions to them privately first. 3- Foiler exponents and detractors have both been putting their case on the net for several years and the exponents don't take your route. For example YOU have been publically denigrating Phil!

    I am NOT accusing foiler sailors of lying. I AM asking for facts, as reasonable people ask of other reasonable people. I AM cautious when there are obvious impossibilities in their statements.

    I am NOT ignoring Monitor but as far as I am aware it did NOT go upwind in normal conditions on foils and at racing speeds.

    I am NOT ignoring Wardy but I can't see why you should publically denigrate Phil. Both are very smart and both have lots of experience. I can't see why you have to disparage one just because he doesn't agree with your views (oh hang on the answer is in that sentence isn't it).

    I did NOT say in my post that the foiler didn't pass As. I did NOT compare the performance of an A to a foiler Moth in that post. I HAVE seen them both on the same course and when the foiler isn't foiling the A is normally much quicker. When the foiler is foiling it goes extremely well as I have agreed many, many times.

    I have said foilers have "very impressive performance; very competitive with the 49ers.", and said that the foiler does very well against world-class Int 14s, 49ers and cats. Don't try to pretend I haven't been at pains to be fair.

    I do NOT ignore what Andy and Sean are thinking, I have merely not seen their idea work. Until their ideas are proven, please allow people the right to publicise the views of those with good credentials who believe it isn't practical. This is merely an attempt to provide a balanced viewpoint.

    I don't respond to your posts to try to convince you. There's no hope of that. I am merely trying to throw up some information to balance your propoganda. It's not worth the effort so I won't reply to any posts again.
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